The Immortalists - October CC Book Club Selection

Parent Cafe
61

I think AIDS deaths varied in length - this article from 1981 https://www.nytimes.com/1981/07/03/us/rare-cancer-seen-in-41-homosexuals.html talks about people dying of Kaposi’s sarcoma in less than 2 years. And of course they may actually have contracted AIDS before that.

I felt all their jobs were kind of symbolic.
Simon - dancer - embrace and celebrate life - do dangerous things you don’t know are dangerous - die young
Klara - Magic and daredevil act - embrace life - do dangerous things you do know are dangerous - die slightly less young
Daniel - Army doctor - safe life, but choose who gets to live and who to die - die middle aged
Varya - Researcher on aging - avoid real life, while extending life - live the longest

62

@ignatius said, “Now, I’m not saying Chloe Benjamin got details right. Obviously she didn’t. I do think she wanted it to tie the MEP posting to her theme - even in a roundabout way. She wanted Daniel to have that power to choose, to correct his mistake over and over, young man by young man.”

I’m sorry, but there were many ways Benjamin could have given Daniel the power to choose, young man by young man, as an Army physician, in a way that is real and actually happened all the time as a military physician. She chose to go in a completely incorrect direction. It isn’t “details” that she got wrong. It is the entire culture of military medicine.

(For those who aren’t aware, my husband is a full colonel, active duty Army physician, with 27 years of active duty service. We were nearly exactly the same age as Daniel was in the book.)

She got everything about his life as an active duty physician in that decade incorrect, and it would have been easy, and much more compelling, had she put him in a correct spot at that time. He WOULD have been deployed to Iraq at that point. He WOULD have seen and treated horrible injuries. He COULD have had been injured himself, or have developed PTSD as a result of his experiences during those deployments. He COULD have been assigned to sit on a Medical Board that would have determined the fate of an injured enlisted soldier or officer returning from war.

To have him work at a MEPS facility is, besides being completely incorrect in terms of the kinds of work active duty military physicians do, an extremely weak explanation for his motivation.

63

It puzzles me when accomplished authors—who have research consultants and editors—make significant factual errors. Although I must say that the errors in Daniel’s story went way over my head. I didn’t notice a thing because that’s not my world, but I can see how it would drive @eastcoascrazy nuts.

I started surfing around, looking for other novels with glaring errors. Pretty much anything by Dan Brown, it seems. :slight_smile:

Shifting gears: Has anyone ever visited a fortune teller? If so, what was that experience like? My husband and I were in New Orleans last month, and there seemed to be psychics camped out at tables wherever we turned. I didn’t visit one…I was too chicken, and too afraid of the power of suggestion.

64

I have never visited a fortune teller, but when I was a teen we used to play around with reading palms. I’d read some books. I had a cousin whose lines were really weird - very short and odd. He disappeared shortly thereafter and was presumed to have been a suicide though his body was never found. I’d also read some French graphology book and his handwriting had all sorts of red flags as well. I was really creeped out by the experience.

I can understand authors making small mistakes, but huge ones that plots turn on. I just don’t get it. In one book the author didn’t have a new moon for a solar eclipse that was when the murder occured. Another book had some very dubious seat belts in an era when they were uncommon. Another had the date of the Kennedy assassination all wrong. Dan Brown’s CERN - the less said the better! I have a friend whose theory is that back in the days when editors actually worked in an office together they were much more likely to share knowledge bases. So even if you didn’t know if something was probable you could ask people in the room and find someone who did.

65

I remember thinking that if it’s printed in a book, it must be true. Then I started working as a book editor and realized that wasn’t necessarily the case!

66

The siblings had a close bond at the beginning, but I felt their closeness drifted after they went to the fortune teller. Other than Simon and Klara, I didn’t see genuine sibling closeness. They wanted it, but they didn’t know how to give or get it.

I agree with @mathmom that some AIDS patients died quickly in the beginning. Simon’s quick death could also have been Simon self-fulfilling the fortune teller’s prophecy.

Never. I’m a chicken.

67

I am really curious to visit a fortune teller but I can’t imagine myself actually doing it IRL.

68

@ignatius: My condolences on the loss of your husband–I had no idea. I’m so sorry. I found your comments very moving and thought-provoking. My husband died from colon cancer 3-1/2 years ago, but I hadn’t thought about the book in that context until you mentioned it. When he was diagnosed (Stage IV) his oncologist said patients like him tended to live at most 3-5 years; he lasted 4. I always attributed that to science, not the power of suggestion, because I know many people who got less time, and some who got more. But sometimes I wonder…

I didn’t like the book at first, but it grew on me. I found Varya’s story the most poignant–she got the longest life, but in trying to avoid the fate of her siblings, she wasn’t living much of one. She reminded me of someone I had a blind date with, decades ago, who took me to his lab where he was researching sibling relationships of fruit flies. But his relationships with his own siblings were nonexistent.

I don’t believe in fortune tellers, but it made perfect sense that children would hear the predictions and be so spooked that their life trajectories reflected what they heard. And Varya’s OCD after seeing the fortune teller rang a bell with me. I had forgotten that during the time my parents’ marriage was unraveling–which started when I was about 11 but took years–I had a minor touch of that myself. I used to count everything I did or encountered–steps, cookies, pages read–and it always had to land on an odd number. Or else something horrible would happen. What, I don’t know. But for years, long into adulthood, I would eat one cookie or three, but never two. It was an attempt at control when I didn’t feel I had it. And then it stopped and I didn’t even notice.

69

I think this book dredges up a lot of things we try not to think about too much. I’ve often found that psychologists, in particular, often seem to study things that are most dysfunctional in their own lives.

@buenavista that’s so interesting. I’ve always thought of OCD as something you were stuck with. When my older son was around ten he developed a weird tic and we took him off to the neurologist. (Diagnosis mild Tourette’s which he might even grow out of.) The report also said something like “mild OCD”, I felt like a Bad Mom because I certainly hadn’t noticed anything. He’s still pretty quirky, along with being ten times smarter than either parent.

I agree that the power of suggestion may have helped the events unfold as they did.

70

Finished the book last night. My overall “rating” is still “meh.” I agree with many of the comments up thread.

I enjoyed the writing itself; always a plus for me. I didn’t find Daniel’s story engaging or believable, and Varya was just odd. In thinking about the 4 stories, IMO each became more far-fetched than the pervious one. But here’s what’s interesting – There are many books I rate as 4 or 5 stars, yet tend to forget quickly. This book I rate at about 2 1/2 - 3 stars, and I’m still thinking about it …

71

Thank you for the links and comments.
If Goodreads had categories for ratings
2/3 stars for plot - character development
4 stars for readability and enjoyment
5 stars for book you will think about

Some observations-
It’s so enriching when many of you have personal experience you share about details in the book as we read,
Obviously, Daniel’s chapter stuck out to some of you.
For me, ( perhaps I projected my feelings about the Mideast mess) I thought he was in a man in existential conflict about sending young Americans into unjustified war.

Benjamin certainly placed her characters in some highly charged events of recent decades -

Aids epidemic (interesting her mother was in gay relationship, not her father. I wonder how the gay community reacted to her depiction of the stereotype of gay men)

Iraq/ Afghanistan war - a physician trained to heal people, had such power over young healthy men’s lives

The suicide / magician Klara- this one was strange - in real life Benjamin’s sister is a snake charmer ?

The pharmaceutical animal research industry a section I Hated reading- I’m weak and don’t like thinking about animal research or the food industry, I should be a vegetarian.

Re: Harlow - I vividly remember the video clips we saw during child development classes in college of the terrified, shivering, tortured baby monkeys, and those images are permanently imprinted in my memory. I couldn’t open your links @mary13

Would I want to know the date of my death- no
I was at an Alzheimer’s conference a few years ago and the expert speaker was asked if he would want to know if he would likely develop dementia / Alzheimer’s and he answered a resounding “no”

Would I want to know "how"I would die ( not necessarily when ) - mmmmmmm maybe, especially with the epidemic of dementias

Would you want to know when a family member or loved one would die.
In my 89 year old mother’s case- I might have more patience now when she frustrates me, so I can see that info might be good to know ?

I have been debating whether to recommend this book to some friends and based on @ignatius and others I will now .

72

^ correction Chloe benjamins sister is a “snake bite venom expert” ???

https://www.ttbook.org/interview/drawing-inspiration-fantastical-everyday

73

For more info on Harry Harlow, there’s Love at Goon Park: Harry Harlow and the Science of Affection, by Deborah Blum
https://www.salon.com/2002/11/13/blum/

It’s been years since I read it, but I remember finding it very interesting.

74

This is the main reason I find our book club so rewarding. I don’t expect to be crazy about every book, but what I always love is hearing how and why the book resonates (or not!) with each of you. When one of us gives a book four stars and puts it on the re-read list and another can barely finish and wants to throw it across the room…well, that’s when the fun begins. :slight_smile: I’m grateful to have so many of you sharing your stories.

After reading @SouthJerseyChessMom’s comment, and then @buenvista’s post #67–especially the quote she ends with–I went looking for an article I remembered reading in The New Yorker: “Can reading make you happier?” The author writes that she was offered a session of bibliotherapy and agreed to it with reluctance:

But she found the experience to be unexpectedly satisfying, and this is the line that struck me:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/can-reading-make-you-happier

75

Other than the obvious magic/mystery of the fortune teller’s predictions, I am having trouble thinking of any instance where the line between magic and reality blurs (in a magical realism sort of way). There are events that are illogical or *improbable/I, but they aren’t really magical. Maybe “surreal” would be a better word to describe certain scenes (such as those with Varya and Frida and their strange, fraught, physical interactions).

76

I have one: Klara is auditioning in Vegas and ends with a strawberry in her hand. She later tells Raj she has no idea how or where the strawberry came from.

77

Or, IMO, just plain ole creepy!

Also, agree, with you, @Mary13, about Daniel’s actions – just seemed so over the top to me.

78

Thank you! I completely forgot about that!

79

“Why are certain characters drawn to magic and the unknowable more than others?”

As I recall Klara, and especially the daughter, enjoyed making people happy and sharing the joy of the mysterious.

80

I think there are many moments when Klara seems to have a connection beyond reality.

From her original meeting with the fortune teller. The fortune teller shows her the props are just for show.