The investment..speculation, out right gambling thread

<p>I was reading about different strategy about options, from what I’ve discovered it almost sounds like a 50 shades of options( to borrow the term from the popular book), very exotic, did anybody try them. The most I’ve done is covered call and naked put. </p>

<p>Exotic options</p>

<p>Asian ·
Barrier ·
Binary ·
Cliquet ·
Compound option ·
Forward start option ·
Interest rate option ·
Lookback ·
Mountain range ·
Rainbow option ·
Swaption</p>

<p>Combinations</p>

<p>Collar ·
Fence ·
Iron butterfly ·
Iron condor ·
Straddle ·
Strangle ·
Covered call ·
Protective put ·
Risk reversal</p>

<p>Spreads</p>

<p>Back ·
Bear ·
Bull ·
Box ·
Butterfly ·
Calendar ·
Diagonal ·
Intermarket ·
Ratio ·
Vertical</p>

<p><a href=“Straddle - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straddle&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Also there is an explanation of some of the strategies for these types of option.
<a href=“Option Straddle (Long Straddle) Explained | Online Option Trading Guide”>http://www.theoptionsguide.com/long-straddle.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Thanks for the information about Scottrade and TD Ameritrade.</p>

<p>Would either be better for purchasing a stock that we intend to keep a long time? </p>

<p>DrGoogle, I am curious what strategies other posters have done. </p>

<p><a href=“Option Straddle (Long Straddle) Explained | Online Option Trading Guide”>http://www.theoptionsguide.com/long-straddle.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Options were my job so if you look at the list of strategies on the left hand side of the link, I have done all of those strategies and in combinations. ;)</p>

<p>In the same stock, I can have several different stategies at work with one or two main themes like I want the stock to rise, or fall, or be stable.</p>

<p>You have a lot of work to do. :)</p>

<p>Because calls can become puts and puts can become calls, there are fewer strategies than it looks like; although, there are many combinations.</p>

<p>The graphs for each strategy are very helpful. </p>

<p>It is always good when you put on a strategy to know the potential p&l, how the strategy is affected by time, and if you arent just trading short term options, by volatilty.</p>

<p>@dstark

</p>

<p>I get that – my point is that I am trading a much, much lower volume level than you, at the level where small margins are meaningless. So if I were to buy T, I’d probably buy 100 shares. Maybe 200. That limits my ability to write calls to 1 or 2 contracts. So 5 cent difference between share cost and stock cost is meaningless to me – that’s $5 or $10 on a trade that’s going to cost me above that in commissions to complete. So that’s crazy. Maybe you have 100 contracts or maybe you have 1000 and you are talking real money. For me, at my level, those margins are equivalent to deciding whether or not to stick another quarter in a parking meter just to be safe…</p>

<p>So for me, T isn’t even an option candidate stock. I’m holding some shares of T in my grandson’s Coverdell – I’ve got him invested in growth + dividend ETF’s and “dividend dog” type of stocks – blue chips that are cheap to buy but pay high dividends, and then all his dividends are reinvested in whatever he’s holding that is the cheapest to buy and pays the best dividends. T pays something like a 5% dividend. But I don’t trade options on that account and even if I did, he only has 33 shares, not enough to write a contract. </p>

<p>I’m holding 3 short call contracts right now on 3 different stocks. Those are simple buy/write transactions. When I bought the stocks, for 75 cents more, I could get some cash back. They were at-the-money options. If the stocks go up, when the options expire I’ll either roll out the options or let the stock go, depending on what the options cost. I won’t lose money unless the stocks drop by about 5% or more, because for me, I am only doing the buy/write if there is that level of premium. </p>

<p>Otherwise, for 1 or 2 contracts, it wouldn’t be worth it. The commissions would eat up all my gains. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I’ve been there and I’ve bought back options at a loss… but for me – that’s one of those mistakes I learn from. I don’t want to write calls against stocks I want to keep.</p>

<p>I understand what you are doing., DStark. I get it. I get that if I had the sort of knowledge and funds available that I was setting up spreads or writing 100 contracts at a time, those pennies would add up. I’m just not there and probably will never be there.</p>

<p>@DrGoogle – (post 9295) – I think when you are looking at an option sheet, if there is no volume on a particular strike, the number you see for price is a historical artifact – that is, it’s whatever the strike traded for the last time anyone bought or sold at that level, which could be weeks or months past. </p>

<p>I’ve noticed that when I look at the option chains, particularly with LEAPS – and also because I have an app on my smartphone that reports options data on some stocks, but the phone app obviously is not real time, so the numbers are only a rough approximation. But I also look at trading volume and open interest before trading anyway.</p>

<p>Here’s my rationale, aside from the obvious issues of bid/ask spread and the ability to fill orders: I am a total novice at options trading. It is highly, highly unlikely that I am smarter than everyone else when I see what looks like a good deal. So if no one else is trading in option XYZ at strike 50… there’s probably a damn good reason. It’s like going to the horse races and betting on the prettiest horse with the longest odds – sure, the payoff would be great if the horse won, but pretty doesn’t win races and I don’t know the first thing about horses. </p>

<p>@DrGoogle - (post 9300) – I’ve done some of the combinations and spreads. One thing I like about TDAmeritrade is that the trading platform does a pretty good job of explaining to newbies what they all are and pros/cons – I mean there is a pick-a-strategy function that gives you suggested trades. </p>

<p>So that’s what I do for learning – for example, I recently read about vertical credit spread and wanted to learn more. That’s when you create a spread where buy and sell at different strike levels, and the strike you sell costs more than the one you buy, so you take a profit a the beginning. The best case scenario is that both strikes expire worthless. </p>

<p>So in July I set up a “bear credit spread” in SPY. I think SPY was at about 198 at the time. I bought 205 puts and sold 202.50 puts., August expiration. There was a 19 cent price differential. So I bought 10 contracts, which is the most that I have ever bought, and was a mistake even though I won that trade. </p>

<p>I netted around $185 or so on that trade. SPY went down – I had intended to close out the spread well before expiration but by mid August SPY was down so low that I didn’t bother. </p>

<p>Here’s why it was a mistake and what I learned from it: a credit spread is not free money. The trader gets money up front, but the setup is that the money received on day 1 is the maximum gain, and its downhill from there. Because I had 10 contracts and there was a 2.5 difference between strike prices, I could have lost $2500. So, not counting commissions, my maximum gain was $190 and my maximum loss was $2500. The odds were in my favor at the beginning, but I made that investment about 3 weeks out and a lot can happen in 3 weeks. TD Ameritrade is very, very good at reminding me that I had $2500 at risk (they essentially put a hold on those funds in my account and that’s there for me to see every time I log in.)</p>

<p>I won, but the amount of money I got was not worth the emotional stress I had along the way. </p>

<p>Like most people, I am loss-averse emotionally – I get more upset thinking about what I might lose than thinking about what I haven’t gained. </p>

<p>So my big takeaway from that single trade was that credit spreads are not for me. I only want to enter trades where my potential gain is better than than my potential loss. </p>

<p>I should have been able to figure that out without making the trade – I’m sure that there are plenty of web sites that explain that in very simple terms – but for me, it really took the daily reminder that I could lose that money in order for the lesson to stick. Of course, I never would have really lost the money, because if SPY had gone to 200 I would have closed out the trade. (SPY is a little under 201 right now – but my trades expired worthless on Aug. 16.)</p>

<p>But that’s basically what I do to learn. I think that things work best for me when there is some stock I can invest him that I think will go up, but it’s risky and/or I can’t afford the full cost of the stock, so I can set up a debit spread that will let me get a piece of the profit. I learned the hard way not to simply buy calls because then I can lose everything if the stock goes down and the call expires worthless-- so the spread limits my risk – but of course my maximum gain is limited as well. But if I gain $2 on a stock that goes up $5, that’s $2 more than I would have if I hadn’t invested at all… so it’s a win. </p>

<p>But again, I’m only doing this as a learning exercise. My current “budget” for spreads is $2000. The SPY spread exceeded the budget, because it was putting $2500 on the line – mistake made, lesson learned. I could have done the same trade with less risk with a debit spread on lower-strike calls. </p>

<p>So I think you can see why Dstark and I aren’t playing in the same league. I’m not even in Little League yet. I am playing option T-Ball/ </p>

<p>Calmom, I get what you wrote too.</p>

<p>Just to clarify a little…</p>

<p>For the most part, I trade smaller now than I did in 1981 when I started as a market maker and had almost nothing. True… I couldn’t afford to sell 100 puts naked in 1981. I needed to be long a percentage of those puts or similar puts for protection because big moves could have wiped me out. So other than the fact I couldn’t be short net calls or puts in 1981, I was trading bigger in 1981. I know limited funds affect what a person can trade. If a person can only afford to put on a few covered writes and that is what the person wants to do…that is fine. If a person doesnt want to trade…that is fine too. </p>

<p>That 100 put sell was an aberration. I dont do that often and I had no idea some guy in Europe would make a bid for t mobile and send at&t and verizon down 5 percent in days. I have been scrambling for the last few weeks to lower my breakeven in at&t. I have done that now so, I am going to trade at&t smaller for the most part and keep some stock for the long run. My verizon position is smaller than my at&t position so I didnt care about vz. I expect to hold vz for many years. </p>

<p>I knew when I sold that straddle that unless the stock gapped up, I was going to cover the calls or buy stock if the stock rose above 34.85 or so. I was just hoping that would not happen. Also…I owned more stock than I was short the straddle so I still had upside. </p>

<p>The book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell sums up my trading style. I have plans but sometimes I “Blink”.</p>

<p>I said earlier that people should trade the way that fits them and their circumstances. I dont think people should be selling 100 puts for .02. It is a bad trade. I have talked about some trades and trading in the past and I did that trade so I wrote about it. I am not proud of it. I have made many mistakes in my career and I will continue to make mistakes in the future. I learn from some mistakes but every once in awhile I still screw up. </p>

<p>On tv and in the press, we listen to people that mouth off and act like they know everything, know where stocks are going and never lose. That’s bs. I dislike bs. :slight_smile: I lose many times and I hate losing. I hate losing. I hate losing more than I like winning. </p>

<p>Calmom, nothing beats getting your feet wet in these options. Failure is the best teacher, you will never make that trade again.
I’m going to assign myself to do more reading and try something so I can learn.</p>

<p>dstark, I did read about market makers when I was in the Bay area, it does sound like a lot of stress.
I usually traded between 5-20 contracts, not 100 contracts. But I diversity in the number of options and that helps me spread the risk. I also do more comprehensive trading on both accounts, the short term account and the intermediate term account. For example, if I wrote a covered call on a stock on a short term account and it moved up more than I expect, and I like the stock and think it’s stable, I keep writing naked put on that stock in my intermediate account. So technically I’m still own the stock.
I have an options book in my garage, a really comprehensive one I bought before I got married. But life happens and I have not read the book. I really hate to read things on line, I like my book. I want to review and refresh. Yeah, I need to study a lot more.</p>

<p>DrGoogle, I usually trade between 5 and 20 contracts myself. My position may become larger because I dont always put on a position at once. I sold 15 puts last week with intent to be short 40…but the puts collapsed and I did not want to sell any puts at .04. So… Temporarily… I Iearned something. </p>

<p>I cant remember the guy’s name who used to be on wall street week and his son works for s&p. </p>

<p>Edit…The quote is from Robert Stovall.</p>

<p>I am basterdizing this quote but the father said something like “selling 2 soybean contracts short is worth 2 years at Harvard Business School”.</p>

<p>Reading is important but doing beats reading. I dont think people know until they are doing it.</p>

<p>I did a trade and the risk manager of the firm that guarantees the money wanted to talk to me. </p>

<p>She said,“how are you going to get out of this trade?”.</p>

<p>I told her, “I will get out of it”.</p>

<p>She said very slowly… One word at a time, O K. I will let you keep this trade".</p>

<p>I was long. </p>

<p>Then shortly thereafter, the stock started dropping and there werent too many bids. I had to sell. I had a number in my mind that I could afford to lose and when I started losing that number became smaller and smaller in my mind! That was one of the worst trades in my career but the loss was smaller than my number. I can smile now. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>Two or three years later the stock was up SIZE. SIZE!</p>

<p>My position was too big to hold. A common mistake. I have done the strategies and I have done the mistakes too.</p>

<p>Are the puts you are selling to stay long deep in the moneys? </p>

<p>One thing I rarely talk about is deltas. Deltas better be in that options book. :)</p>

<p>

Sometimes they are, like GBX, when I’ve heard from Josh Brown on cnbc discussed why he liked the stock it was around $50+, I sold $55 GBX Sep put and then it kept climbing so I sold again $70 GBX Sep Put, today I think the stock is hovering around $70. I did finally got around to close $55 GBX. I’m waiting to GBX to expire close to worthless. But I don’t mind owing the stock.</p>

<p>

I want to get the theory down first before I practice. Nothing is more dangerous than a little knowledge.</p>

<p>You have to trade small when you start.
We are trading probability and low probability events occur.</p>

<p>There was a market maker. First day… He lost everyhing. 80 percent of the market makers did not make much of a living. </p>

<p>Re my post #9306 – on re-reading this I see that I explained it wrong. I bought & sold CALLS, not PUTS. So if anyone read that and it didn’t make sense, that’s why. </p>

<p>Calmom, I like your posts.</p>

<p>Deleted</p>

<p>@MathildeMae - for a basic investor who wants to buy and hold stocks or mutual funds for a long time, I like Scottrade. Check to see if there are any Scottrade offices near you. One reason I like them is that they assign your account to a local office with real human beings that can help you out and answer questions. They do NOT give investment advice - they are just staff who are paid a salary – they aren’t getting commissions or kickbacks or bonuses based on pushing people into specific funds. But they are there to help and definitely can answer questions. My experience has been that the staff is really stable – my account rep is named Brian and I have now had Brian assigned to my account for as many years as that particular branch office has been open. </p>

<p>One feature like about Scottrade is “flexible dividend reinvestment” (FRIP) – you can pool all the dividends you receive into one fund, and than apply that money to purchase more shares in whichever holdings you want, commission-free. So you get the benefits of dividend reinvestment without the drawbacks – you aren’t setting yourself to pour back more money in an investment that isn’t doing well overall and you aren’t setting yourself to pay money to buy shares at inflated prices when the market is near peak. </p>

<p>Scottrade is NOT good if you want to trade options - they have a different type of account called Options First that you can sign up for instead, but I don’t think that offers the FRIP and I know you can’t invest in mutual funds with those accounts. Plus, if you want to invest in options, that’s account still charges you 1.25 per contract which is way too high compared to other services. But as a newbie, I don’t think you should mess with options anyway.</p>

<p>I pretty much agree with everything said in this review:
<a href=“Online Broker Reviews | StockBrokers.com”>http://www.stockbrokers.com/review/scottrade&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I would not particularly recommend TD Ameritrade, but I will say that their customer service is really good, even though everything is online with them. It’s just that their commissions are higher than others. I opened the account I have with them a long time ago when things were different. I don’t have any particular reason to be dissatisfied, so I’m not going to move my account. </p>

<p>When you are looking at the review it says that a downside is that you need $25K invested to get the “ScottradeELITE” trading platform. Don’t worry about that. If you aren’t a active investor and don’t have that much money to invest, you aren’t going to need or want that platform anyway. I do have it, it has a lot of bells and whistles, but it also crashes a lot on my Windows 8 computer. Which kind of defeats the purposes of using it for online, active trading. They probably require the minimum investment for that platform to justify handling all the tech support calls that software generates. You don’t need that to trade-- you can do everything you need to do on the regular web site, in your browser. </p>

<p>

One thing I learned as a beginner was that scrambling to try to save a losing trade is generally not a good idea. There’s an adage: “if you are in a hole, stop digging.” I have some stock that I inherited from my dead uncle. One stock was CAT - it wasn’t doing so well so when I started selling Covered Calls, I was selling CAT. The price kept going town, the options kept expiring worthless, and I kept writing calls. But CAT was falling in value more than what was coming in from option premiums, I would have been better off to have just dumped the CAT and used my money to buy something good. Like TSLA or NFLX, I have a long, long list of stocks I should have bought but never did. Many, many years ago I bought AMZN at $15, right after the big tech bubble bust. I don’t remember how much, maybe 100 shares, maybe as much as 300. It went up to about $75 and then slid back down so I sold it all at $45. Oops.</p>

<p>I’m not saying that you shouldn’t scramble. You know what you are doing. I don’t. </p>

<p>TD Ameritrade has a feature that automatically times out a trade if you don’t complete the order within 90 seconds after starting it. I had to turn that off because I kept getting timed out. </p>

<p>You’ve been a high frequency trader. </p>

<p>As I said, we aren’t playing the same league. </p>

<p>I need to look into the ScottradeELITE. I’ve been doing everything apart blindly. Oy!</p>

<p>Scottrade and Optionsfirst are going to merge soon. </p>