<p>“As soon as they get the chance, Israel’s neighbors will drive it into the sea.”</p>
<p>That is as good as a cow manure.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It’s a little hard to parse what you wrote, but if you disbelieve Monydad’s comment I’d like to ask why the Islamic mid-Eastern nations would suddenly renounce 60 years of clearly annunciated policy if they had a chance to make this goal a reality?</p>
<p>I only wish it were.</p>
<p>But to deny history would require smoking a good bit of same.</p>
<p>“The difficulty of the publishing of the initial paper has more to do with the influence of the Israel Lobby than the quality of the work.”</p>
<p>What can you cite to support this besides your own opinion? Reference?</p>
<p>“It’s a little hard to parse what you wrote, but if you disbelieve Monydad’s comment I’d like to ask why the Islamic mid-Eastern nations would suddenly renounce 60 years of clearly annunciated policy if they had a chance to make this goal a reality?”</p>
<p>Driving in to sea business can only happen if the Plestinians had the military might. Israel is much stronger than all of them combined.</p>
<p>“^Wow - from what rock did you crawl out under, Cruella? I guess we’re all anti-Semitics, communist propaganda supporters and isolationists then.”</p>
<p>No just watching out for silly ideas, such as the US can live by this:</p>
<p>“Any influence by a foreign government on our national interests is, by definition, a bad thing. Period!” </p>
<p>which is a rather flippant statement about a serious topic.</p>
<p>But this is a message board, that doesn’t necessarily have any accountability or referencing to historical events or precedents. Just opinions.</p>
<p>The radical Palestinians are funded and armed by the Iranians. There is not a single question in my mind that their goal is absolutely to rid the middle east of Jews completely. </p>
<p>The anti-Israel rhetoric, endorsed by the state run media in most of the Arab counties (including those that have “made peace” with Israel), suggests very strongly that they would ALL throw the Jews in the sea, given half an opportunity. </p>
<p>With Iranian might, they might just get their wish. The Shia/Sunni might hate each other, but they hate Israel more. It is their great uniter.</p>
<p>"“Any influence by a foreign government on our national interests is, by definition, a bad thing. Period!” </p>
<p>which is a rather flippant statement about a serious topic."</p>
<p>Not really. A patriotic observation.</p>
<p>In every corner of the world except the United States, no one even has the luxury of debating the proposition “Any influence by a foreign government on our national interests is, by definition, a bad thing.” That’s because at least one foreign government – the U.S. government – is constantly seeking to influence the behavior of other governments and how they define their national interests, and not delicately, either. Some resent it more, or more vocally, than others (e.g., Iran), but few fail to deviate their course at least somewhat in response, at least not unless they have some pretty deep caves that they are willing to live in.</p>
<p>That’s why the statement is flippant, and silly. Foreign governments influence each other’s national interests all the time. We certainly want to influence others’, and although in our unique case it’s conceivable we could tell the rest of the world to go pound sand indefinitely, that’s not an especially good long-term plan. The statement is not patriotic at all, just facile jingoism.</p>
<p>How does a discussion like this help kids get into college, or parents understand how to support the process of kids getting into college? </p>
<p>I could start a thread on the reproductive lives of rabbits, but I don’t.</p>
<p>Just asking…</p>
<p>Isn’t the cafe supposed to be an off-topic forum?</p>
<p>Many (if not most) of the cafe topics have absolutely nothing to do with college!</p>
<p>^^true enough, ok then, I will just skip over this one</p>
<p>Iran has a Jewish population of est.50,000 , none of which were forced to flee. If they wanted to rid the Middle East of Jews they would have no need to go to Israel.</p>
<pre><code>What you see here is equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. It would be tantamount to me accusing everyone who wanted to get rid of the Taliban as anti-Muslim. In actuallity, the Zionists are the biggest anti-Semities. They are several quotes from Begin and other Zionist leaders saying they didn’t care about the Holocaust because these Jews chose not to emigrate to Israel. However, in the aftermath, the Zionists were glad to use the Holocaust as an excuse to create a state and take massive reparations from Germany.
</code></pre>
<p>With all due respect to your varied opinions, we face a clash of civilizations. Israel is a modern western culture that identifies with the goals of the USA and other western cultures. Hence, our critisisms of Israel are rooted in western morality and beliefs. </p>
<p>If we were to judge the Islamic world by the same standards, as many reasonably agrue we should, support for Israel might not seem like such a stretch. </p>
<p>I’m still waiting for a reformation of Islam that articulates a willingness to live harmoniously with others of disparate beliefs. </p>
<p>It seems to me that we are playing a dangerous game of dividing a house united that plays into an agenda that supports the opposition.</p>
<p>collegialmom, you didnt understand my post. I am not suggesting being isolationist. But i am suggesting that decisions made by our government should be unfettered and not influenced by another nation’s lobbyiing for us to conform with their national interest.</p>
<p>There will be times when the interest of the USA and another nation are the same on a particular issue and that is fine. However if foreign lobbying casuses our government into an action which compromises us that is a terribly bad thing.</p>
<p>It is my observation that originators of threads such as this and many of the subsequent posters manifest some common characteristics across the threads:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>There is a marked degree of intolerance for differing views, a strong proclivity to personally attack those who would dispute an assertion and an inability to engage in objective consideration of whether one’s views may be based on incorrect assumptions, inadequately substantiated facts or conclusions influenced by preconceived outcomes that fit one’s skewed view of the world.</p></li>
<li><p>Revisionist history runs rampant. Falsehoods repeated with sufficient frequency and vigor become “truth” which then, of course, always supports the preconceived conclusions that are born out of the proponent’s unacknowledged bias.</p></li>
<li><p>The proponents, at some point always protest that they are not anti-semitic and that there is a difference between being critical of Israel and being prejudiced against Jews. Obviously one can be critical of some of Israel’s actions without being anti-semitic just like one can be critical of our government’s actions without being unpatriotic. In fact, one of the things that sets Israel apart from all of the other countries in the area is that it’s own citizens (including Arabs) enjoy the rights and benefits of free speech and a free press of which they frequently avail themselves including public criticism of the government and various of its policies.
However, this is clearly distinguishable from what occurs on threads such as this. Here, there is never any recognition of the failings and faults of any other country in the region and those who dare to suggest otherwise are quickly ridiculed and personally attacked or belittled. Here, the aspirations and rights of Jews as a people to have their own national homeland is delegitimized while the notion of a homeland for other peoples in the region (Palestinians) is never questioned but instead is always tacitly or overtly supported. Here there is always innuendo if not express criticism of Israeli action or policy without a scintilla of recognition that much of what occurs is in response to terrorist murders of innocent civilians and a denial that those who would commit such acts as a matter of “national policy” (Hamas, Hezbollah etc) are in fact terrorists. Here, Israel seems to always be held to a standard which if applied to other countries, not just in the region but in the world, would cause them to appear to come up short. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Here, fakery, fraud and sophistry is used to attempt to create a veneer of of “intellectual respectability”. You are not fooling anyone. If it walks like an antisemitic duck, talks like an antisemitic duck and looks like an antisemitic duck, it is just that.</p>
<p>The Jews of Iran
1948 Jewish population: 100,000
2004: ~25,0001</p>
<p>The Jewish community of Persia, modern-day Iran, is one of the oldest in the Diaspora, and its historical roots reach back to the 6th century B.C.E., the time of the First Temple. Their history in the pre-Islamic period is intertwined with that of the Jews of neighboring Babylon. Cyrus, the first of the Archemid dynasty, conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E. and permitted the Jewish exiles to return to the Land of Israel, bringing the First Exile to an end. The Jewish colonies were scattered from centers in Babylon to Persian provinces and cities such as Hamadan and Susa. The books of Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Daniel give a favorable description of the relationship of the Jews to the court of the Achaemids at Susa.</p>
<p>Under the Sassanid dynasty (226-642 C.E.), the Jewish population in Persia grew considerably and spread throughout the region; nevertheless, Jews suffered intermittent oppression and persecution. The invasion by Arab Muslims in 642 C.E. terminated the independence of Persia, installed Islam as the state religion, and made a deep impact on the Jews by changing their sociopolitical status.</p>
<p>Throughout the 19th century, Jews were persecuted and discriminated against. Sometimes whole communities were forced to convert. During the 19th century, there was considerable emigration to the Land of Israel, and the Zionist movement spread throughout the community.</p>
<p>Under the Phalevi Dynasty, established in 1925, the country was secularized and oriented toward the West. This greatly benefited the Jews, who were emancipated and played an important role in the economy and in cultural life. On the eve of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, 80,000 Jews lived in Iran. In the wake of the upheaval, tens of thousands of Jews, especially the wealthy, left the country, leaving behind vast amounts of property.</p>
<p>The Council of the Jewish Community, which was established after World War II, is the representative body of the community. The Jews also have a representative in parliament who is obligated by law to support Iranian foreign policy and its Anti-Zionist position.</p>
<p>Despite the official distinction between “Jews,” “Zionists,” and “Israel,” the most common accusation the Jews encounter is that of maintaining contacts with Zionists. The Jewish community does enjoy a measure of religious freedom but is faced with constant suspicion of cooperating with the Zionist state and with “imperialistic America” both such activities are punishable by death. Jews who apply for a passport to travel abroad must do so in a special bureau and are immediately put under surveillance. The government does not generally allow all members of a family to travel abroad at the same time to prevent Jewish emigration. Again, the Jews live under the status of dhimmi, with the restrictions imposed on religious minorities. Jewish leaders fear government reprisals if they draw attention to official mistreatment of their community.</p>
<p>Iran’s official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda. A prime example is the government’s publishing of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a notorious Czarist forgery, in 1994 and 1999.2 Jews also suffer varying degrees of officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and public accommodations.3</p>
<p>The Islamization of the country has brought about strict control over Jewish educational institutions. Before the revolution, there were some 20 Jewish schools functioning throughout the country. In recent years, most of these have been closed down. In the remaining schools, Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslims. In Teheran there are still three schools in which Jewish pupils constitute a majority. The curriculum is Islamic, and Persian is forbidden as the language of instruction for Jewish studies. Special Hebrew lessons are conducted on Fridays by the Orthodox Otzar ha-Torah organization, which is responsible for Jewish religious education. Saturday is no longer officially recognized as the Jewish sabbath, and Jewish pupils are compelled to attend school on that day. There are three synagogues in Teheran, but since 1994, there has been no rabbi in Iran, and the bet din does not function. 4</p>
<p>Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran’s Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.</p>
<p>On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6</p>
<p>At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7</p>
<p>Today, Iran’s Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community’s isolation from world Jewry.
Notes</p>
<p>1World Jewish Congress (WJC)</p>
<p>2U.S. State Department Report on Human Rights Practices for 1997.</p>
<p>3Many Jews Choose to Stay in Iran, Associated Press, (Jan. 18, 1998).</p>
<p>4Jewish Communities of the World. Reprinted with permission of the World Jewish Congress (WJC). Copyright 1997; Institute of the World Jewish Congress. U.S. State Department Report on Human Rights Practices for 1997.</p>
<p>5 Schneider, Howard. “Iran Court Reduces Penalties for Jews.” Washington Post, (September 22, 2000).</p>
<p>6Jerusalem Post, (January 16, 2002); Washington Jewish Week, (October 31, 2002).</p>
<p>7U.S. Department of State, 2001 Annual Report on International Religious Freedom, Released by the Bureau for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor Washington, DC, (October 26, 2001).</p>
<p>Iran’s Obsession with the Jews
Denying the Holocaust, desiring another one.
by Matthias Küntzel
02/19/2007, Volume 012, Issue 22</p>
<p>On December 12, 2006, Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad personally brought to a close the infamous Holocaust deniers’ conference in Tehran. A strange parade of speakers had passed across the podium: former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, the nutty followers of the anti-Zionist Jewish sect Neturei Karta, and officials of the neo-Nazi German National party, along with the familiar handful of professional Holocaust deniers. Frederick Töben had delivered a lecture entitled “The Holocaust–A Murder Weapon.” Frenchman Robert Faurisson had called the Holocaust a “fairy tale,” while his American colleague Veronica Clark had explained that “the Jews made money in Auschwitz.” A professor named McNally had declared that to regard the Holocaust as a fact is as ludicrous as believing in “magicians and witches.” Finally, the Belgian Leonardo Clerici had offered the following explanation in his capacity as a Muslim: “I believe that the value of metaphysics is greater than the value of history.”</p>
<p>If this motley crew had assembled in a pub in Melbourne, nobody would have paid the slightest attention. What gave the event historical significance was that it was held by invitation, at the Iranian foreign ministry: on government premises, in a country that disposes of the world’s second-largest oil reserves (after Saudi Arabia) and second-largest natural gas reserves (after Russia). And in this setting, the remarks quoted above provoked not dismissive laughter, but applause and attentive nods. On the walls hung photographs of corpses with the inscription “Myth,” and others of laughing concentration camp survivors with the inscription “Truth.”</p>
<p>The
Tehran deniers’ conference marks a turning point not only because of its state sponsorship, but also because of its purpose. Up until now, Holocaust deniers have wanted to revise the past. Today, they want to shape the future: to prepare the way for the next Holocaust.</p>
<p>In his opening speech to the conference, the Iranian foreign minister, Manucher Mottaki, left no doubt on this point: If “the official version of the Holocaust is called into question,” Mottaki said, then “the nature and identity of Israel” must also be called into question. The purpose of denying, among all the Nazis’ war measures, specifically the persecution of the Jews is to undermine a central motive for the establishment of the state of Israel. Auschwitz is delegitimized in order to legitimize the elimination of Israel–that is, a second genocide. If it should turn out, however, that the Holocaust did happen after all, Ahmadinejad explains that it would have been a result of European policies, and any homeland for the Jews would belong not in Palestine but in Europe. Either way, the result is the same: Israel must vanish.</p>
<p>This focus explains why the conference’s sponsors attached so much importance to the participation of a delegation from the Jewish sect Neturei Karta. Although it does not deny the Holocaust, the sect welcomes the destruction of Israel. That objective was the common denominator uniting all the participants in the conference. In his closing speech, Ahmadinejad formulated it with perfect clarity: “The life-curve of the Zionist regime has begun its descent, and it is now on a downward slope towards its fall. . . . The Zionist regime will be wiped out, and humanity will be liberated.”</p>
<p>I’d like to thank MichaelNKat. Personally, I thought that this whole thread was turning more than a bit disturbing, and I am glad you decided to debunk the “wonderful life of the Iranian Jew” mantra.</p>
<p>As if Jews have been anything more than “dhimmis” EVER in any Arab country, even before they were mostly expelled.</p>