Glad we agree on that point. The question then becomes, given their limited marginal utility, are they really “good way to measure a number of skills relevant to success in college?” In other words, if we can get to the approximately the same point without the scores, then why is it so important to some that they play a major role in admissions?
And what of the costs of requiring the test scores? Is it “a good measure” if requiring the tests means that the qualified students who are hardest to find will be much less likely to even apply?
Only if those candidates apply. But many don’t apply. That’s in part why schools went to TO. To cast a wider net. This seems to be a point that those who insist on the importance of requiring tests always ignore.
What about the otherwise excellent students who will not apply if tests are required?
I understand you are more interested in the lower SES and you do have a point that those students tend to not apply if SAT is required. I want to point out though that for students in the higher SES (say, top 30%) wishing to pursue STEM, a low SAT math score (say, <500) is very telling on the likelihood they will successfully graduate as STEM majors (not just graduate). Without the SAT, it will be harder to identify these students during admission because too many students have great GPAs these days. SAT math therefore has values as a predictor of non-success in STEM for students who are not hampered by low SES.
But under TO, that student is not being viewed in a vacuum where the only piece of information is the SAT math score. The AO can look at other indicators to see if can satisfy its standards for math proficiency. And if no indicators exist, then the school can reject the student.
IMO, it is a fallacy to suggest that TO means that more applicants with inadequate math skills are being admitted. If the kid can satisfy the AO by some other means, why do you care the SAT Math score?
For example, if a kid gets a 5 in AP Calc BC, what extra info do you think the AO is learning from the SAT Math score?
No idea, but some do. The AP Calc test was the first alternate mechanism I thought which could be used to demonstrate math proficiency. The point is, if an applicant cannot demonstrate math proficiency to the school’s satisfaction without submitting an SAT, then the college can (and will) reject the student.
I don’t know anything about that particular test, but If her school is in Berkeley or the Bay Area then chances are relevant colleges will be well aware of whether students who get X grades in X classes will be adequately prepared for college.
The alternate mechanism you selected for your example of how to demonstrate math proficiency was another standardized test, which underscores the point that standardized tests are a good way to determine math proficiency.
I’ve never objected to all testing, so I am not sure your point? If a student wants to demonstrate math proficiency to a TO school by submitting their SAT score then that is one way to do do it.
But for me, a test measuring mastery of a certain subject (for example AP Calc BC) given to students who have all taken the same course is much more a meaningful guide regarding proficiency in that subject than is a hodgepodge test like the SAT given given to everyone no matter what their academic background.
Same question for you: If a kid gets a 5 in AP Calc BC, what extra info do you think the AO is learning from the SAT Math score?
You are making Yale’s case for requiring some sort of test. Their new policy allows AP scores as well as , or instead of, SAT scores. So a 5 would be just fine.
The debate about which standardized test to use is different than the debate about whether to require a standardized test. I am not contending that the SAT is the only acceptable standardized test — the ACT is used as a substitute all the time — only that having an acceptable standardized test is important in evaluating a student.
I am not making anyone’s case. But I’m glad that Yale understands that an SAT score isn’t the only way to demonstrate math proficiency. Also, I wish the rhetoric here didn’t repeatedly suggest otherwise
The same student that doesn’t apply because their 1400 isn’t competitive also knows their school-level club EC’s can’t compete with the crazy EC’s top students can supply. So same reasons to avoid applying exist in both scenarios.
I have to disagree. Anecdotally, in our school system, it appears AP scores have a high correlation to the quality of teaching. On the whole, scores for certain teachers are starkly different than scores for other teachers of the same subject with the same demographic of students.
It’s a very different scenario. The school’s website and/or CDS lists an ACT/SAT score range. Many students choose to not apply, if they are not high on the listed score range. This contributes to why application count skyrocketed at many colleges with a perceived high score range barrier, when they stopped making tests mandatory during COVID. For example, MIT application volume increased by more than 60% during the first year that tests were not mandatory for all students, in spite of MIT’s website using strong favoring test submission wording, saying that students should take and submit tests, if they could safely do so.
In contrast, colleges do not post an EC range on their website, making it far more difficult for students to know if their ECs are low/mid/high compared to admitted students. This contributes to why students as a whole often underestimate the importance of ECs and overestimate the importance of tests for admissions. Many students think it is critical that their scores be in range, but are far less concerned about how their ECs rank.
@HWilliamson, not sure which of those conversations you imagine this to be, but I am talking about whether or not schools can determine sufficient math proficiency without requiring everyone to submit either the SAT or the ACT. If a school is willing to consider other indicators (whether grades, awards, recommendations, AP scores, rigorous class, etc.) then that school is, to some degree, “test optional.”
But I’m glad we agree that schools can determine math proficiency without requiring everyone to submit the SAT/ACT.
It fascinates me that you are comfortable telling colleges how they must determine math proficiency. Seems more than a bit of an overreach on your part to me, but you think you know best, I guess.
@curiousme2 Not sure your point of disagreement. APs aren’t perfect. But if an applicants wants to use them to demonstrate math proficiency why shouldn’t they be able to?
Or perhaps they simply do not realize an upper end of ECs exist well beyond that of their local high school. So many assume club president and team captain are the pinnacle of EC success.
In contrast, most students know others with higher standardized test scores ( whether AP, ACT, SAT, the old subject tests, or a combination) and know the actual scale of possible results
No more of an overreach than you claiming that colleges can determine math proficiency without requiring a standardized test.
They are called opinions, and people in a free society express them in a variety of ways, including anonymous message boards like this. They debate Supreme Court decisions, coaching decisions from yesterday’s game, college application list decisions, etc., and they do so often times without having taken a single law school class, coached a single game, or been on an admissions committee.
That’s one of the big reasons you go to college — to learn to think for yourself instead of just saying yeah that’s right because those people know better than I do. You seem to have no problem forming your own opinions and expressing them. But when others do it, it is overreach, or they don’t want to have a serious conversation with you, or any of the other dismissive comments you have made to people who disagree with you.
