Is there data from any college or university where non-test submitters have a higher college GPA than those that submitted standardized test scores?
Like I was saying.
See you all here next week when the university of xyz goes back to test required and we can parse out whatever their rationale and releases say or donât say and how theyâre wrong because something something variable wasnât controlled.
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Yes, but when this occurs, non-submitters usually have stronger academic credentials than submitters. For example, the report at https://web.archive.org/web/20140307034329/https://www.nacacnet.org/research/research-data/nacac-research/Documents/DefiningPromise.pdf shows some examples. College PR8 shows the following stats. Non-submitters had a higher graduation rate and cumulative GPA than submitters, although they did not have a higher first year GPA.
- Non-submitters â HS GPA = 3.63, SAT = 1110, FY GPA = 2.96, Cum GPA = 3.24, Graduation rate = 88%
- Submitters â HS GPA = 3.49, SAT = 1270, FY GPA = 3.07, Cum GPA =3.06, Graduation rate = 86%
That study is from 2014. Ideally, I was hoping for a during/post-covid study of students who didnât have to submit to schools where, in the past, they would have to submit. I also wish we could identify PR8.
Students have a lot of choices of great schools. All this nonsense does is make kids with high GPAs not even think of applying to these schools if they donât care for the SAT. It is the schoolâs loss more so than the kid.
You are the only person Iâve seen in the thread using simple language like college x is âright,â and college y is âwrong.â Itâs not that simple an explanation. Instead the best testing policy for a particular college depends on things like what admission criteria does the college use to admit test optional applicants â is it just HS GPA or does the college consider the full transcript + LORs + ECs/awards + âŠ? How will the testing requirement influence public perception of the college, including applications and donations? How will the testing requirement influence self selection of who applies? Which types of students are being admitted test optional (majors, hooks, athletes minorities, full pay/high needâŠ)? What criteria the college wants to emphasize in creating a class? What makes the class successful? What support does the college offer for students who had a relatively weaker HS background? âŠ
My point about listing the controls was that you can use the same analysis to support different conclusions, depending on wording and what variables you focus on. Itâs not proof that college x is right, and college y is wrong.
For example, at the PR8 college mentioned in my post above, non-submitters had both higher cumulative GPA and graduation rate than submitters. This occurred because test optional applicants were held to a higher standard than test submitters, as reflected by the higher HS GPA.
Suppose a college seeing this analysis wanted to write a public report supporting a switch to test required. They might say something like the Cornell statement â test submitter admits had a somewhat higher first year GPA than test optional admits. This difference remained after controlling for HS GPA and other factors. In this case, the âsomewhat higherâ was a 0.1 difference in first year GPA.
Suppose the college instead wanted to write a public report supporting a switch to test optional/blind. They might instead say something like the Bates report â that test optional applicants had a higher cumulative GPA and graduation rate than test submitters, without mentioning that test optional applicants were held to different admission standards.
Both public reports would contain true statements, yet they would seemingly support opposite testing policies.
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Admission rates would say otherwise. Top schools have more than enough applicants with high GPAs and SAT scores.
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The number of high-GPA students who âdonât care forâ the SAT have plenty of other options.
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So, some schools (in your view) are doing things the right way and are not considering standardized tests. Others are making a mistake (in your view) and are considering standardized tests. You admit that the kids who âdonât care for the SATâ have plenty of âgreatâ options.
You also say it is the schools that are considering the SAT that are the losers, not the students.
With all of that considered, what drives your immense passion in all of this? Are you really losing sleep at night because Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth are going to be losing out on certain students?
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Harvard, Yale and Darthmouth know full well what they are doing and why. I have no doubts. It is offensive when they try to back up their actions with questionable data.
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As far as I can see, colleges which are getting tens of thousands of applications for 1,500-3,000 places like having a simple numerical factor that can help them cull a substantial number of applicants and being able to flap around numbers for proof of validity.
I really wish that they would say âSATs make it easier for us, and TO didnât help low income student say much as people say it would.â Instead they are trying to create the illusion that they are being âfairâ, âhelping low income studentsâ, âsaving academiaâ, etc.
Of course, âeliteâ colleges, especially the Ivies, have always had an inflated sense of self-importance âwe are the torch-bearers of culture and civilization!!â, while, at the same time, focusing on agendas which benefit them, even if the agendas are bad for the rest of the society.
People can rest assured that, if Harvard makes a decision, it is for the good or Harvard, not of any low income students who are applying to Harvard. People can also rest assured that Harvard will spin it as being for The Good Of All, and end up believing that themselves. Other Ivies are no better (some are worse).
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Why is it offensive? You said students are fine. They have plenty of options. No students is being harmed according to you.
Why did you dodge this question?
I this a new revelation???
LOL 
Just based on that statement alone, arenât you admitting that the war on the SAT is misguided? The SAT is providing legitimate utility to these schools.
This isnât about Harvard, or any other highly selective school, achieving your concept of moral perfection.
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Sure, but you can apply the same logic to the test optional schools. They are similarly creating an illusion that âtest optional means test optionalâ and âyou are not penalized for failing to submit a scoreâ. But the truth is that test optional is not test optional for all students at many of these schools. It is used for institutional priorities and, in some obvious cases, to play with score ranges. In all cases, it is being done for the same reason that Harvard is going test required â because it benefits the university.
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Not sure âmanyâ is the case here. Some to be sure, but most of the 2,000 or so TO schools accept most applicants and are truly test optional.
Agree with these statements. I am surprised this thread continues to be active. There is no âwarâ against the SAT, nor a movement âforâ the SAT. Itâs not about the SAT, and never has been. Schools are doing what is best for them, as alwaysâŠand thatâs not going to change.
Further, what is best for each school can vary by institutional priority but also just by how they choose to interpret data. For example, letâs say test optional students have an average GPA of 3.2 and test submitters 3.4 average GPA. Some college leaders might look at that GPA data and say test optional makes sense as those students are doing well and succeeding here. Some college leaders might look at that data and say test optional students are lagging submitters. Both interpretations are reasonable, whether the difference in average GPAs is statistically significant or not. Schools will choose which data interpretation best supports their goals/institutional priorities/mindset/political persuasion.
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True. I was thinking about the highly selective test optional schools. I think most of the arguments on this thread relate to that universe vs the vast majority of colleges out there.
The SAT is about to undergo a massive digital transformation. It will also use âAIâ in what it refers to as adapted testing. My understanding is if someone struggles in the first part of the exam, their questions will change as the exam goes and I assume, it will change the grading. So no two exams will be the same. Get ready for a whole new world of âobfuscationâ about what SAT results will really measure. AT its heart the SAT is a business and industry, no more and no less.
Where is there obfuscation? SAT is an achievement test, testing what a student has learned.
Not exactly. The adaptive testing works like thisâŠthere are two modules (in each of EBRW and Math) and the second module is based on how well the student did on the first module (not only number of questions answered correctly, but also whether they answered the more difficult questions correctly.) If a student gets the âeasierâ module for the second module, their score will be capped somewhere around 600. It is true that no test will be the same (so digital testing does away with most cheating concerns.)
You can learn more about the digital SAT here: The New Digital SAT
It is already digital. My understanding is that the second part is binary â there is an easier version and a harder version based upon how you do in the first part. You canât get a very high score unless you get the harder second part, but if your performance on the first part is such that you get the easier second part, then you wouldnât be getting a high score anyways.
So for the kinds of scores necessary to get into the most selective schools, it is not really that relevant â all those scorers are safely getting the harder second section.
There are other changes that are likely more significant. For example, the reading is no longer structured with 5 or so questions on a long passage, but 1 question on a short passage.
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