Several test-optional normie colleges that long predate COVID (as well as the elite examples like Bowdoin). Every one that I have heard about claims that TO students succeed at similar rates to test reporting students.
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I hear it all the time from parents in my circle. Whatâs good enough for everyone elseâs kid isnât good enough for theirs. They want to sound sane, but actually theyâre very intense. Itâs a common archetype in my experience. If you donât see it in your circle, Iâm envious.
ETA: Iâve seen variations on this board, in parent meetings, in the news media, etc. Itâs the parents who say theyâre huge public school advocates, but their kid was simply too advanced for the local public, so they had no choice but to go private. Or they say that they want diversity in said private school, but when diversity takes the form of, say, a disruptive child or a kid who demands a lot of teacher time, theyâre the first to complain to administration.
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I donât see it in my circle, nor on CC. Since you referenced both places, I thought I must have missed something on CC.
The parents who think the âtippy topâ colleges are the only ones worth going to (in my acquaintance) are the ones who continually ask why my kids/other kids didnât apply to those schools and seem angry/incredulous with my response. They are more interested in getting buy-in from other parents about their own views on ranking than trying to dissuade other parents from having their kids apply.
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My experience is that parents who are gunners for Ivies are so secure in their choices theyâre not trying to convince me (or anyone else) of their position. After all, Ivies are top schools so they have nothing to explain. The form it takes for college is the parent trying to sound low-key and open minded, but their kids tell your kids that theyâre under a lot of pressure. The hypocrisy is the dissonance between what they say (âLots of great choices out there!â) and what they actually do (have very high aspirations and pressure their kids).
Overall, I find the CC community supportive and open minded, but over the years, Iâve definitely seen some of the double-speak that @Zrt42 referenced.
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Have you been on CC long? 
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So, grade inflation is increasing with the CSU system push to increase graduation rates? Are there more equitable outcomes in application review?
Isnât the issue that with dropping standardized testing, there is increased reliance on even more inequitable application components? How does this data speak to that?
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This isnât true because most students who want to attend college have financial constraints and as such, are limited to their local CC, commuting to a 4 year school, or attending an in-state school.
Many state college systems disagree with this. It is true that K-12 education is inequitable and lacking in the US. The state colleges canât fix that, but they can offer remedial classes to those who need it. In a system like Texas, where the top 6% from each public HS are guaranteed an admit to UT-Austin, UT has no choice but to offer remedial classes. That seems like the right thing to do, even though itâs likely not cost effective for tax payers or students.
As for private colleges, they can build classes however they want.
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Yes, but the colleges cannot fix the K-12 school programs at that level, and only the most selective colleges that do not give much leeway for hooked applicants or institutional priority applicants can avoid any need for remediation.
This assumes colleges are good at remediating missing elementary and secondary school skills. There is little data to suggest they are. Professors are not hired for their ability to teach such skills, nor well suited to doing so. Large lectures which are cost effective at the tertiary level, are not set up for that kind of support. And college is an incredibly expensive place to learn basic skills.
UT does it because it has to, but the set up is far from ideal.
The daughter of a friend spent 5 years in remedial classes at a state flagship and didnât manage to get even an associateâs degree. What a waste of time and resources for all concerned.
As long as there are honors programs available, the students who are truly prepared will still flourish. But, in the end, the diplomas will look the same.
Of course it matters. Anyone who thinks it doesnât is deluding themselves. Pedigree and personal branding is very very important. This is written by someone who went to their stateâs very solid but unspectacular flagship and has had to compete, claw, and scratch my way to the top through experience, hard work, and an eye for the bottom line.
It doesnât matter anymore because I have been successful despite my educational pedigree, but boy it took a ton of work to get there and proving myself every day.
Attending an ivy or top 20 gives you an extra rung on the ladder. Period
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Oh and I should add: at no time did I ever feel like I was outgunned by those who had better pedigrees and branding them myself. Some are really really good, but so was I. And some were just average like any other kid at state U or top 50-150. But the point is that it is delusional to think that top 20 pedigree doesnât give you a leg up. Of course it does, and it is why they are so sought after.
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I donât necessarily agree. I attended a T20 LAC (where I graduated with latin honors), my husband attended a directional public school that is never mentioned here. He has not only been more successful than me but is much more successful than all of our Ivy/MIT friends (much, much more). That is because he has phenomenal people skills and is a networker beyond compare - and he has fire in the belly. That canât be taught at any school. Most of my friend group has very good jobs, but they arenât substanially different than those of their neighbors who attended âlesserâ schools. Does that mean that elite schools donât confer some benefits - no - if you want IB or MBB (or you dream of being a SC justice) you will definitely be at an advantage coming from those schools. Plus, you might have a more enjoyable experience - my husband freely admits that my college experience was better and enjoys attending reunions with me (he jokes that by the time I get to my 50th people will think he attended too). I just think it is mistake to think that there are only a small number of colleges that can lead to success - especially since most kids wonât have the opportunity to attend one.
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I have a spouse who went to a flagship U. First gen college student, lived at home for undergrad. Works high in the corporate latter of an east coast company. Has a number of elite grads working for him including MIT, etc. Same guy also spent some time working for a wall street company.
I have a kid that just graduated last spring from a flagship who got a 6 figure job as a 22 year sitting next to a T10 ivy grad. That kid had stats to apply anywhere and graduated in the top 5% of his college graduating class. Yes, we chose that for undergrad because we paid somewhere in the low 20K area (unusual merit and attention) and he seemed likely a student who might want to go on to grad school (and he still may). Our 2nd kid went test optional last year due to covid, was applying to music programs so seemed like a good choice for her. But is showing herself to be a similar student academically to her sibling.
We live in an upper mid class neighborhood where there are T20 grads living and working alongside of range of other educational experiences. I donât doubt there are individuals who make important connections at these schools. But I think people that are sold on prestige are quick to undersell experiences that might be possible at a large range of schools. Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting video on why you shouldnât attend Harvard somewhere on youtube.
Anyway, my spouse and I were both minimally guided public school first gen students. We both got good but not amazing ACT scores. I graduated in the top 10 of a class of 350. We both graduated strong from an engineering program at a time with high attrition and drop out. We both tested at the top of the GMAT when we took it. We just got better at showing our stuff on that type of test. Still waiting for data that drop out rates are higher and graduation rates are lower at schools using TO. I think in this age of AI, schools have a lot more data to work with than people realize to help sort through this. Lawrence University (small CTCL LAC in Wisconsin) has been using TO since 2007 with excellent results and (80% graduation, 89% retention).
Anyway, been watching this discussion with interest. Thanks for the discussion.
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But note that McGill also requires SAT/ACT scores from US applicants (no doubt due to the lack of standardization of the high school curriculum in the US) and since students are applying for admission to specific majors, theyâre being assessed on their preparedness in the specific high school prerequisite subjects required for admission to those majors. Itâs not just your overall GPA. The marks you need to get admitted to STEM majors will not be the same as to be admitted to Social Sciences or Humanities majors. It will be even different depending on which specific STEM/Social Sciences/Humanities major you apply to as it is mostly driven by supply and demand. That means that the scores necessary for admission could in theory fluctuate every year (and they do, but generally not significantly as trends in demand and grade inflation are slow to shift).
I agree that it is a much more transparent process but thatâs in large part because admissions are based on the assessment of a studentâs ability to do the work of the specific major theyâre being admitted to. Universities also arenât trying to âcraft a classâ. If they need oboe players for the orchestra, they can get them from students applying to the music major for which they will need to audition, not to mention that thereâre bound to be some qualified ones among the 6,700 students they admit each year. Same goes for the other performing arts that also have affiliated majors. As for sports recruitment, well there isnât quite the cult of âcollege sportsâ in Canada as there is in the US and to be honest Iâm not sure how prevalent it is or how it works.
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Except that you canât be sure that without comparable SAT/ACT scores that youâre actually comparing apples to apples. How do you know that the 2022 cohort of students are comparable to the 2019 cohort on the basis of entering GPA alone? Without SAT/ACT scores you canât know if there has been significant degree of high school grade inflation between the two cohorts, and if there has been, then the fact that the 2022 cohort is showing a greater proportion of A/A- grades means that it could be the result of grade inflation at the college level as well.
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The U.K. system of an extra âfoundation yearâ that allows promising students to catch up for shortfalls in education seems like a good idea. You only get to progress to the full degree course if you perform satisfactorily during the foundation course.
In some way thatâs similar to community college in the US, but that replaces rather than supplements the first years of a degree. Community colleges might offer a single year âpre-collegeâ course, but the system isnât set up for that in terms of aid (or in terms of allowing the four year colleges to maximize their own revenue).
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McGill has been TO for US applicants for a couple of years (thru Fall 2024 applicants), for several majors (including some of the relatively more competitive ones:
Fall 2024 applicants: The ACT/SAT opt out policy has been extended to students applying to undergraduate studies for Fall 2024, for the programs noted below. To exclude the ACT/SAT requirement from your admission review, see below.
*Applicable for: Agricultural and Environmental Sciences, Arts, BA&Sc, Education (including Kinesiology), Engineering (including Architecture), Management, Nursing, and Science.
It will be interesting to see if they extend this policy or not.
I agree with you AND I also see what @lovetractor is saying. I think both are are true and correct. Top 20 schools do open doors and can be a shorthand to evaluate someoneâs drive, smarts and skills. After all, if you studied math at MIT, you must be pretty smart, right? But I also agree that there are other ways to open doorsâhard work, connections, job performance, internships, etc. In other words, going to a T20 may be a shortcut, but there is more than one way to add an extra rung to the ladderâeven if you have to work for it.
I think that the definition of a âgood collegeâ is expanding and will continue to do so. We can already see it in schools like BU (my alma mater) and Northeastern which were not high highly competitive in the early 90s and have seen a huge rise in reputation and selectivity. I think many of todayâs up-and-coming colleges will enjoy a similar boost in the coming 15â20 years, if not sooner. As admissions policies change and high-stat students donât get into T20 (or canât afford to attend and seek more merit) and instead attend âthe tier belowâ the elite, those students lift the reputation of the school.
My D20 does not attend a T20 and has made great connections with professors, peers and through internships. Had she gotten into her first choice (USC, another example of a school that has had a big rise in reputation in last 20 years) she might have had a boost because of the name, but she also might not have stood out as she has in a smaller pondâand standing out has opened doors.
Either way, while Iâm not denying the opportunities of a T20, I have seen first hand how a student can thrive outside of the elite college band. Iâve also seen from my husband (the small-town kid who went to Harvard and studied physics) that the name opens doors in the first few jobs (an advantage), but after that, it has been his skills and work experience. His intellect helps, but thatâs a correlation with his Harvard degree, not a causation. He would have been brilliant no matter where he went to college.
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I think thereâs a larger flaw in Dataâs data. Why should we expect college grades to change? For example, if a Dept normally awards 40% Aâs, 40% Bâs, 10% Câs, 10% lower, why would that âcurveâ change even if the bottom of the class is less prepared? Or, if students are struggling in Calc, they donât drop the class and become Lit or Studies majors?
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