I encourage you to listen to the admissions related podcasts from schools like Yale and Dartmouth. Also, read interviews with current and former AOs. What you said you wish for is exactly what they say takes place. No institution looks at just SAT scores. They all do think that standardized test scores can be an informative part of the process, just not the entire process.
7 Likes
Sure tests CAN be an informative part of the process but the vast majority of schools and AOs donāt believe they are necessary factors in the process and find it no problem admitting students without test scores.
1 Like
The vast majority of schools enroll anyone with a pulse and a checkbook.
2 Likes
The problem is when the SAT test score is staring at you, it creates a bias and overshadows everything else. AOās may like to think it doesnāt but, it is human nature.
This, albeit aligning with grumpy profs and the perennial cycle of complaints regarding āyoungināsā, sounds very interesting.
I wait with bated breath.
Once again - they only predict first year GPA, despite other claims. It does not predict either graduation rates or success after graduation. Iām pretty sure that I could create a correlation between something like height and first year GPA.
The claim that they also like to repeat is that it helps low income kids.
The percent of low income students who were accepted in 2022 was the same as before they were TO. The percent of students with financial aid and the percent of kids with Pell grants was lower than the class of 2023 than in the class of 2026. Going TO has not made a difference in the percent of low income students who matriculate to Yale.
Again, they are doing it because it will simplify their admissions procedure, help them justify the admissions of the type of low income students that they already want, and also may help them recruit low income students relatively cheaply.
Regrading the last, we know that schools which serve low and mid income families rarely get recruiters from these āeliteā private colleges. We also know that the SAT scores are used by colleges for targeted mailings, unless the student opts out. This way, Yale doesnāt have to spend money on college recruiters for these high schools.
However, a press release with āwe are doing this to save money of admissionsā after so much research has shown that SAT scores are correlated to income would be, well, unadvisable. Instead, they throw out a justification that it helps predict success, and that it helps increase admission rates of low income students.
Personally, I donāt think that it will make a difference in admissions of low income students or student success one or another. With holistic admissions there are dozens of ways to change the demographics and any other aspect of the incoming classes. Adding SAT scores will help them justify, after the fact, whatever result they wanted from the start. All they need to do is change the context in which they use (or claim to have used) SAT scores.
So long as enough critics are of the belief that SAT scores are unambiguous measures of either āintelligenceā, academic aptitude, or preparedness for college, they can be used to justify any outcome.
I just wish they would be honest and say āwe are returning to use the SATs because they make our lives easierā (āourā meaning the admission staffās).
3 Likes
Certainly not the case with my son who was a student recruiter when he attended Yale. The schools he was assigned to give presentations/QA were the urban and rural HS in our area, not the magnet, private or affluent public HS.
5 Likes
That is rare. This is something that has been noted time and again in any discussions of low numbers of low income applicants. āEliteā colleges tend to send ācollege callersā to schools which historically have sent students to the college.
This statement by you is 100% at odds with the statements from the Dean of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale. What information about standardized tests and student performance at Yale do you have that the Dean of Undergraduate Admissions at Yale does not have?
2 Likes
So Yale (on its podcast) does indeed claim that they found SAT/ACT scores positively correlates with collegiate performace across 4 years at Yale
20:30 of Yaleās Podcast episode āStandardized Tests: The Big Pictureā
ā[Standardized tests] have been designed to predict your academic performance in college especially in your first year. Yaleās done a lot of research on our own applicant and enrolled student data, and we have found consistently that this is true. Not only is it true but in our pool test scores are the single largest predictor of a studentās academic performace at Yale, and this is true over all four years.ā
Iām sure what you point out is part of the picture; Iām not sure thereās any indication other than speculation that itās the major driver.
2 Likes
That may be true, but they donāt have four year data, let alone graduation data, for any TO applicants to compare that with, right?
And, if the data are so clear, why not publish that and/or make it public?
1 Like
Part of what the Yale AO office has done is create 2 full time staff positions in the office at the Senior Assistant Director level whose focus will be community outreach in furtherance of diversity, both at the community/school levels and student levels. In the past, this was āpart timeā work of the admissions readers. Reaching underrepresented groups and maintaining diversity is not just lip service. All of this was presented to us by Quinlan and the AO staff during a mandatory webinar related to changes driven by the SCOTUS decision.
1 Like
True, but they are looking at correlation (testing vs academic performance) not a comparison (between submitters and test optional applicants) wrt to their statement. I believe they stated that they have researched into years before TO to find this correlation. That aligns with their strong statement regarding this correlation that they posted on their website all through their test optional years.
Weāre falling into the trap of saying āschools and AOs know what theyāre doing, leave them aloneā when they align with certain narratives and then resorting to āschools and AOs are hiding things as usualā when they donāt align. I think for fairness (as a community and not as individuals) we should try to be more consistent and say we either trust schools and AOs or that their statements are fair game for criticism in these discussions.
I bring this up because as a community, we said āschools know better than those pesky parents so let them evaluate ECs and well-rounded classes as they see fitāā¦ and then we turn around and say āthose self-serving neāer do wells are hiding somethingā¦ certainly there are more selfish reasons for resuming test requiredāā¦ (Iām not singling you out Mwfan1921, Iāve just seen it from both sides over and over in these contentious threads)
Anyway, Iām all for making all that data public. And again, I donāt give a hoot that they are private institutions.
6 Likes
I donāt disagree. I believe schools can have whatever policy they want and trust each schoolās leaders to make the right decision for their school. They donāt even need any data to do that.
It is a fact that 80% or so of 4 year colleges, including the vast majority of highly rejectives are test optional/blindā¦so those professionals are seeing something different, for now. Some may go back to test required, most probably wonāt.
And for the record, I have often called on long time TO schools, like Bowdoin ,to release their data too.
2 Likes
We shall see.
In any case, the center of their recruitment efforts for low income students remains mailing low income, high achieving students, at least according to a 2020 press release:
The SATs have historically provided the names and mailing addresses for students who take the SATs.
Iām not sure where CB is on selling student data. They were selling data, but canāt sell NY student data now, after the recent lawsuit settlement. Not sure if they will stop the practice altogether, itās not really clear.
Interesting, I didnāt know about this. However, I wonder if itās OK if the student opts to have their scores sent to the colleges along with the info.
I read it that CB canāt sell NY student data obtained when they check the Student Search Service box during tests adminstered under contract (NY w/ CB), which are SAT/AP tests administered during school. So, maybe that means Sat/Sun tests are exempt? Thatās not clear.
Bottom line, no student should not be checking the Student Search Service box, ever. (IMO of course)
The hires were made Fall 2023. I am sure targeted mailings remain a tool, but hiring 2 full time professionals plus overhead, etcā¦ is tangible evidence of a different level of commitment to me.
āLast month, a group of professorial faculty submitted a petition to President Rosenbaum alleging that there has been a decline in student readiness for and performance in classes.
ā¦
The petition questioned the decision to continue test-blind admissions.ā
What a shocker!!
They need to get familiar with the work of CC analysts confidently stating that just like at the schools ābelowā MIT (purportedly everyone but Caltech) standardized tests canāt serve as a meaningful predictors of academic readiness at a school āaboveā MIT (Caltech) because of how good their admissions officials are at reading into the tea leaves of high school GPAs, and how their self-selected applicants should all be admitted anyways.
ā¦Glad to see the madness is beginning to abate.
1 Like