There are also almost ten times as many undergrads at Oxbridge as there are at MIT.
Not quite ten times. Oxford and Cambridge have around 3300 and almost 4000 undergrads per year respectively vs MITās 1100-1200.
I have only skimmed this thread there are too many posts to get caught up on. But it did make me go look at my sonās high schoolās stats.
36% of the graduating class of 2022 had a 4.0
Thirty- Six percent. That is ridiculous.
My son has over a 4.0 weighted but is only in the top 25%.
The last data available on SATās was 2015- Average SAT was 1166. In the top 10% of the class the average was 1254. My kiddo scored well over the average score of the top 10% of his class, but he is only in the top 25%, with a 3.9/4.2ā¦ Maybe the kid with the higher SAT is in to the arts and taking some unweighted classes that they love vs someone who takes the easiest dual enrollment (worth 5.0 at our school) known as easy Aās.
I scored abysmally on the SAT a hundred years ago, but I still think it is an important part of the whole picture.
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This is a great example of why Yale needs scores to determine the diamonds from the trinkets
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more importantly, how does one define āacademic rigorā? Also, as we learn in Operations Research, optimization problems are subject to constraints.
For example, the University of California optimizes for academic rigor in a class that they are trying to make look like the state population. Does that mean that they have the absolute best math students in the state? No, it does not. But with their constraints, they are optimizing class rigor at the top UCs.
I hope they are not ātrying to make [the class] look like the state populationā since discriminating on the grounds of characteristics such as race and gender (pretty much anything other than socioeconomic disadvantage) has been illegal for many years.
At most they should be trying to ensure that there is statewide representation across the system as a whole, through the ELC top 9% eligibility criteria.
Well, some disciplines are more āsquishyā than others, but what constitutes rigor in math is not exactly rocket science;)
If in doubt, one could always consult a math professor.
And so I think this remark from @MITChris isā¦ wellā¦ pretty remarkable:
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That shouldnāt be āat mostā, that should be the basic. Modifying it, though, may be needed.
As critical as I am of Texas in many ways, their basic model of tiered auto-admissions for in-state students is pretty sound. Californiaās public higher education works a bit different than that of Texas, so having the auto-admit based on the system (UC and Cal State) may not work, but still, there is no reason not have have a tiered auto-admission system. If not for the top 50% like Texas, at least the top 25%.
Most majors at most CSUs are basically auto-admit at the CSUās baseline requirements (fulfill specified course requirements, 2.5 recalculated HS GPA for frosh, 2.0 college GPA for transfer).
Note that the Texas auto-admit system only applies to the campus, not the major (i.e. do not expect top 6% rank by itself to get into CS at UT Austin automatically).
Many studies indicate a dramatic decline in the % of kids who read for pleasure. It has been in long-term decline since the 80s. If your kid still reads for pleasure be grateful.
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Yes, I donāt know about all CSU campuses, but out local campus - CSU East Bay - has auto admit for local students who meet the minimum GPA requirement. So you donāt even need to be in the top whatever percent - you just have to maintain decent-ish grades and you are in. And itās a solid school.
You can check for impaction at various CSU campuses at Impacted Undergraduate Majors and Universities, 2024-25 | CSU
I personally am glad that some schools are staying test blind/test optional. Here are my thoughts:
- I teach at a state university, and indeed Math ACT scores of 24 (or higher) are associated with more sucess in our STEM majors. So, it is valuable information. But we use this information -not to exclude -but to get students with less than a 24 addtional help wth math BEFORE they take Biology and Chemistry. Doing well on the MATH portion of ACT is partially based on preparation not brain power. Case in point - I had a student come in with a 20 math ACT. He had to take two āremedialā (lower than College Algebra) classes. He got an A and B in them. Went on to get an A in College Algebra and As in Chemistry and Biology. Heās doing great in his STEM major. Without knowing he was struggling with math, he might not have suceeded in his introductory science classes.
SO - I understand while <T30 state schools want this information.
HOWEVER - at more competitve schools, I have a real issue. My daughter is a smart kid ā in honors/AP classes at a decent public high school. 3.8 GPA/4.6 GPA (weighted). She has excellent EC because the school district provides them (Research opportunties, Biotech specialization courses) and through her own effort, she landed a competitive volunteer position at the zoo. So - we didnt have to pay for them but they will probably be considered good to MAYBE very good ECs.
So I promise to get around the the ACT/SAT issue
We are middle class. My daughter took a practice ACT test and scored around 23 without any studying -so okay but not great. We signed her up for a prep class -which for us ā is very expensive. But itās a group study class, and they typically raise scores by 3-5 points. So assuming she studies hard, she could get a 28. Better but not outstanding.
The schools she is looking at for target: Brandeis, Mount Holyoke, University of Rochester, WPI, RPI. Reaches: Smith, BU, Bryn Mawr. So good schools for target, and more prestigious for Reaches. (Safeties are her state schools - approximately 22 and 3.5 (weighted) for auto admission)
Bottom line ā right now, her ACT scores are going to put her in the lower 25% for the schools on this list that take ACT scores. But I looked at the prep place ā with more money, she could get 20 hours of private lessons. Iām pretty sure with that --and her own work ethic -she could get the 30 or 31 required to be mid-50%.
So I kind of feel like you can buy your way to a higher score (okay NOT 34 and higher) --but high enough for the upper level but not super elite schools.
So I guess Iām asking, is the 27-28 my daughter likely to get REALLY going to make her less prepared than another student with a 31-32 at Brandeis or UR? Probably not? But does it limit her ability to get scholarships at those schools (and thus us being able to afford them) ā quite possibly.
So Iām a fan of a baseline value for the purposes of knowing who needs support -but Iām happy some schools like WPI are still test blind. Because it gives kids like my daughter and equal shot.
Now Iām willing to listen to other opinions. Maybe this is a conversation about elite schools, and not a more regular āsmartā kid. But I hope some schools still stay test optional/test blind.
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But donāt many colleges and universities have their own math (and English) placement testing that matriculated frosh have to take before registering for courses? Such placement testing would have noticed this studentās need for remediation even if the ACT (or SAT) score were absent.
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The SAT traditionally offered advantages to wealthier families in better school districts. These include SAT classes, coaching, and a better education via more things, such as more AP courses. Also, given that universities did not adjust relative SAT scores, these advantages were more pronounced.
Several things have happened over time to somewhat level the playing field, but not entirely; some examples:
- Khan Academy offers SAT training at no cost.
- Also, Schoolhouse offers SAT Tutoring for free.
- Universities such as Yale and Dartmouth are adjusting and viewing scores based on the local area scores. This gives a student in a disadvantaged area a chance to stand out.
In the end, SAT is far more predictive than other components of an application. Wealthy students can attend better schools, access tutoring for classes, get assistance writing essays, and benefit from their parentsā legacy status. Accordingly, the argument that the SAT is imperfect is not a reason to eliminate it. By that standard, you would first eliminate legacy, essays, and grades.
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Why include legacy in that list? Do you have data showing underperformance by legacies?
Is there any empirical proof/studies that Khan Academyās SAT training is significantly effective? Same question for Schoolhouse.
This is nothing new. They have been doing this for a long time, measured in decades. They have both been saying for a long time, 10+ years, that they want to increase diversity (FGLI, URM). For many reasons they havenāt been entirely successful in these endeavors, but both did increase diversity when they were test optional.
My kids found the Kahn academy practice to be great. It is targeted based on a previous official or practice PSAT or SAT, well organized and well paced.
My kids also tutor for schoolhouse. Itās 8 synchronous classes twice a week in the 4 weeks prior to any SAT. There is no more than 10 kids in a group, but often less, and grouped according to score range. Tutors receive a curriculum and support. Schoolhouse even sent a free Wacom tablet to use during lessons.
These resources are excellent, BUT like everything else, you get what you put in. Expensive tutors are not the magic pill people make it out to be. Plenty of wealthy kids at elite schools donāt manage the score they want.
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I have heard positive anecdotes about Khan and Schoolhouse before, I was really wondering if there are any studies that show significant improvement in scoresā¦and what populations see those.
Lots of suggestions to use Khan and Schoolhouse on these boards, wondering where the proof they are effective is.
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