The Misguided War on the SAT

[Chekov]

@Mwfan1921

What do you feel you know that test optional or test blind enrollment VPs are all missing?

That many of them are about to change their mind

[GPS]

I was talking to a high school CCO office. The CCO was AO at North East SLAC and said this
“colleges are playing a game”. They hire people to increase the no. of applications so they seem more selective since the number of spots is the same year to year. He said additionally this decreases the interest rate on the bonds they issue or when they borrow money.
I read an article on WSJ about how Duke and subsequently a school in Chicago hired the same guy to increase the applications. Being TO will artificially inflate the applicant numbers. We will see that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth will have decreased no. of apps and become “less selective” next year.

[Mwfan1921]

@GPS

We will see that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth will have decreased no. of apps and become “less selective” next year.

Time will tell.

What is highly likely to happen is that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth will get fewer apps from the disadvantaged students that they say they want more of.

[roycroftmom]

With a sub 5% acceptance rate, they are getting plenty of applications from all types of students now. They don’t need more.

[MWolf]

My point is that SATs should be optional, not required. They should also be considered in context. So if there are two kids from affluent high schools which have the same distribution of As, Bs, and Cs (that is usually on the school profile that is shared with colleges), a substantially higher SAT score can be helpful.

However, AOs tend to treat SATs as absolute, and will compare the 1520 that a wealthy kid received to the 1420 that a kid who attended a high school that serves low income families, and conclude that the wealthy kid is a better choice because of the higher SAT score. They will ignore the fact that the kid from the wealthy family had help preparing for the test, is more likely to have received accommodations that they needed, had a much better setup for taking the test, and with this being the best score from the three times that they took the test. Whereas the kid from the lower income family has taken the test once, in worse conditions in their underserved school, not having the possibility to prep, without having accommodations if they needed them.

Re: Khan Academy. Yes, it’s free, but high speed internet is not. It will likely be worse, now that the Affordable Connectivity Program is running out of money.

So I’m for test optional.

I do think that high schools should administer the tests to all students for various reasons, but those are not entirely related to college admissions.

[BKSquared]

I agree. I have been getting the sense from the Yale AO through their changes in policy, sessions involving interviewers and other key alumni groups that they might welcome a decrease in applications. Their focus is on targeted outreach (2 full time officers hired just to do this) and yielding low SES, first gen and other groups meeting diversity needs. I have seen slides graphing the increase in yield rate among underrepresented groups and it was clear from the presentation that this was the focus vs gaining gross applications. There was specific mention that students with a “32” in a school that averages “17” was going to catch their eye. So at least for Yale (and maybe Brown and Dartmouth), the squeeze in processing a ton of extra applications because of TO may not be worth the juice and they’d rather target finding the diamonds.

[roycroftmom]

Why would you make that assumption? I think that is quite unlikely to happen. AOs do not treat scores as absolute, and there are plenty of kids with top scores not admitted.
More likely, an AO will give a poor student credit for a 1400 and knock a rich kid down for that score, since it is easy to find rich kids with 1500 scores.

[Mwfan1921]

@MWolf

However, AOs tend to treat SATs as absolute, and will compare the 1520 that a wealthy kid received to the 1420 that a kid who attended a high school that serves low income families, and conclude that the wealthy kid is a better choice because of the higher SAT score.

I don’t think this is necessarily true, and there are plenty of AOs/enrollment leaders who have said as much….they are putting scores (and sometimes a lack therof) in context of each applicant’s circumstances.

[Aimlesscat1]

@Mwfan1921

What is highly likely to happen is that Yale, Brown, and Dartmouth will get fewer apps from the disadvantaged students that they say they want more of.

Their goal is better qualified SES apps. If they do the right outreach and communications that outcome is possible. They really don’t need or care about more volume. There admit rates are getting so low that they might actually work against the schools at this point.

[Mwfan1921]

@Aimlesscat1

If they do the right outreach and communications that outcome is possible.

I agree they don’t need more volume in general.

But they do need more volume of FGLI and URM students…as we discussed on this thread many times. Even mitchris has said how difficult outreach is and they have two dedicated staffers as well. Not to mention that only about 20%-25% of limited income students take an SAT/ACT…and many of them don’t have scores that they would ever send to Y, D or B.

But again…time will tell how this works out, and I respect whatever testing policy a given school thinks is best for them.

[worriedmomucb]

Maybe I’ve missed it, but I don’t think we’ve talked much about this issue: lack of test sites. I had heard anecdotally about students here traveling as far as Las Vegas to take the SAT. That requires either a lot of gas and a reliable car or airfare for two (since minors can’t check into hotels) and likely a night at a hotel (if the test begins early in the morning), plus food, local transportation, all in addition to a registration fee. How does a low income family afford that?

UPDATE: Lack of SAT testing centers in the Bay Area creates problems for...

[Mwfan1921]

We’ve definitely talked about it, but good to keep reiterating it…this is a barrier for many students especially on the west coast which has no/very few colleges that require tests. Counselors have been reporting for several months that all sites are sold out thru this cycle (summer tests) within four hour drives of their areas. Part of the issue is lack of dedicated college counselors in HSs and other lack of resources, part of the issue is anti-testing sentiment.

[mtmind]

@HWilliamson

Colleges have had no problem letting potential applicants know that they are test optional. Big bold letters on their admission tabs etc.

They can apply the same effort to let students know that SATs are viewed both on an absolute basis and in context. They can put up stats about it like they do for every other metric they want to highlight, talk about it in their virtual and in-person tours, whatever. Make people other than CC posters very aware of how they use standardized tests.

This may be more wishful thinking than solution. Kids from lower income brackets are much less likely to take the test, no matter the size of the font on the college applications. And they are less likely to effectively prep for the test. And they are unlikely to realize that a score outside of the 25-75 may well be high enough given their circumstances. So they either don’t take the test, or take t and don’t apply. That’s the reality. Changing the font size on the application isn’t going to change it. Test optional or test blind was never about letting in less qualified kids, it was about getting qualified kids who wouldn’t normally apply to apply.

[tamagotchi]

@worriedmomucb

this issue: lack of test sites. I had heard anecdotally about students here traveling as far as Las Vegas to take the SAT.

Yes. I’ve started to be concerned since I have a D26 who will presumably be taking the SAT at least once next year, and it doesn’t seem that our local test center woes have improved very much. The article mentions students going to other states … and I can report that we already talked in our family about being prepared to go to Oregon if necessary, since we have family there and it might not be as hard on D as driving a long way in CA or going to NV. For students without the resources to travel, I don’t know what they would do.

[Zrt42]

@MWolf

Whereas the kid from the lower income family has taken the test once, in worse conditions in their underserved school, not having the possibility to prep, without having accommodations if they needed them.

You make fair and reasonable points. I think the goal should be to address these points and not to avoid testing.

Testing is important. A HUGE part of the college experience is taking tests. Tests are essential for society. None of us want a doctor that didn’t take tests in medical school. None of us want to live or work in a building designed by an engineer that never had to take tests. Wishing really hard that tests didn’t matter so much is the wrong approach.

To address your points, let’s get a billionaire to champion this cause and to: provide free SAT prep courses at under-performing high schools, offer a 2nd free SAT test at under-performing high schools and have specialists that work to get kids at under-performing schools the accommodations they need.

We need real solutions. Pretending that testing doesn’t matter is not a real solution.

[bludbulldog]

Colleges (at least the selective ones) are tough. You have to take tests, overcome obstacles and write clearly. A good SAT score shows at least an ability to handle college work and to deal with the hassle of taking a test without excuses. It’s not everything but it is a measure to take into context.

[roycroftmom]

Kids from low income brackets obviously take the tests in the many states that offer it as part of the school day. Seems like that is the obvious solution to accessibility in testing

[mtmind]

@Zrt42

To address your points, let’s get a billionaire to champion this cause and to: provide free SAT prep courses at under-performing high schools, offer a 2nd free SAT test at under-performing high schools and have specialists that work to get kids at under-performing schools the accommodations they need.

The point of education is not a high SAT score. Focusing even more time and resources on the test would take time away resources away from the study of actual subjects, or pursuing valuable non-academic interests. "Under-performing schools should be teaching real subjects, not how to game the SAT.

This type of overemphasis/overvaluation of the test is another reason schools moved away from the tests in the first place, and a reason that predictions of its triumphant and universal return may turn out to be a bit premature.

[worriedmomucb]

@roycroftmom

the many states that offer it as part of the school day.

Out of curiosity, how many states do this? I tried googling but did not find a clear answer (the one site I found that seemed to offer a clear answer seemed like the most recent info was from 2016, so may no longer be accurate.)

[curiousme2]

Anecdotally, it seems “only” CA is having a problem with lack of testing sites. I haven’t seen anyone from other states complaining about needing to travel for testing.

I agree that we need real solutions and pretending that testing doesn’t matter is not a real solution. I also agree that kids from low-income brackets all test in the many states that require it as part of the school day. This is where the focus should be. Make it mandatory nationally that all public schools offer “free” school-day testing for juniors, whether that be ACT or SAT.