The Misguided War on the SAT

[roycroftmom]

And plenty of colleges will accept those students, just not all.

[Canuckdad]

But there is an inherent bias against them if SAT is not test optional. There is no similar bias against students who may have zero creativity but, test well in math.

[tamagotchi]

Oops, for some reason this came out as a reply to @roycroftmom when it wasn’t intended to.

@Canuckdad

There is no similar bias against students who may have zero creativity but, test well in math.

I am not sure if students can test REALLY well in math if they have zero creativity. All the super great math people that I know are pretty creative thinkers in general (although they do often have certain things they aren’t good at).

[yikkblue]

@Canuckdad

Einstein was not as interested in math to be considered in the top 5% of his class in math. This would not result in an SAT score that would get him into the 1500 SAT range

This couldn’t be more wrong. Einstein may not enjoy the axiom-theorem-proof-corollary type of rigorous math and needed help in differential geometry to develop his theory of relativity, but to say he couldn’t ace a freaking SAT math test is like saying an NFL QB couldn’t complete a routine 5-yard pass beyond the line of scrimmage.

[Zrt42]

@Canuckdad

The point is that there are creative students who don’t do well in math or logical reasoning. The SAT is a barrier for them as a result.

As I said, there are many, many options for creative students who don’t test well.

My position is that it is better for our society to have our students who are very creative AND very bright (especially as it relates to mathematics) at our best universities (with the most resources) being taught by our best professors.

The SAT isn’t stopping any creative geniuses who test poorly from going to college.

[Data10]

@roycroftmom

Really wish people would stop repeating this myth. Einstein did well enough on the entrance exam to enroll in ETH Zurich for math/physics at age 17.
How he would fare in US " holistic admissions" is more debateable. He was rather singularly focused.

@Canuckdad

Einstein was not as interested in math to be considered in the top 5% of his class in math. This would not result in an SAT score that would get him into the 1500 SAT range. That is the point. And some students are singularly focused in math and the SAT is skewed in their favor.

Einstein was a mathematical prodigy. His 12-year-old tutor stated, “the flight of his mathematical genius was so high I could not follow” He mastered multivariable and integral calculus by age 14, received high grades on math, and received high scores on math exams. He has numerous related accolades throughout his childhood.

Math was not the problem. The problem was other fields. For example, he initially applied to ETF 2 years earlier than most. He did well very well math and physics portions of the examination (earned “with distinction” marks), but failed the general portion of exam, including receiving poor marks in language. Similarly the report card photograph that is shown on the Internet shows max grades in math/science, but only a 3 in foreign language and a “-” in primary language/writing, which it’s my understanding is comparable to failing.

There are too many variables and differences to reliably estimate how things would go for Einstein in a modern college admission system, but playing along based on his earlier history, it could go:

• High scores in math/physics; subpar scores in certain other subjects, such as language
• High grades in math/physics; subpar grades in certain other subjects, such as language
• High course rigor in math science, including taking course far beyond his grade level
• Incredible ECs/awards/out of classroom activities in math/physics, likely insightful research publications
• Incredible LORs, with comments suggesting he is among the greatest prodigies every taught, like earlier tutor

I don’t think the admission decision in this case comes down to whether Einstein applied test optional or test required. It’s more if the college wants to take a chance on a kid that is very one dimensional – a math/science prodigy, but subpar in language and other subjects not closely related to the fields he plans to study. If the ECs/awards were strong enough, such as incredible research publications; I’d expect some highly selective, holistic colleges would take the chance.

I think where Einstein would suffer is a college admission system that is simply a formula based on total SAT score + HS GPA. With English, languages, and other fields that didn’t interest him pulling him down; his overall stats down, he would not be among top applicants, so would be rejected. I’d expect Einstein to do better on a holistic system than just looking at stats.

My math/science abilities are obviously nothing compared to Einstein. However, back when I applied I had a similar type of pattern, with strong math/science and relatively weak other areas, such as languages. I was several years ahead in math science, taking classes at a nearby university, where I received all A’s. I also had a great LOR from my math professor. I consistently also did well on standardized math/science tests, almost always getting a perfect score. I also had decent math/science ECs, such as interschool math competitions.

However, I didn’t do as well in other fields that didn’t interest me, particularly English and languages. Similarly my scores were relatively weak in such fields. I only scored a 500 on my CR SAT, which mostly related to the vocabulary section. I later scored >700 on verbal GRE, after my vocabulary improved during college and I bothered with prep. Many selective colleges were willing to take a risk and accept me in spite of the relatively weak English/language; including Stanford, MIT, and Ivies. Had admission only considered my stats (1300 SAT + ~3.6 HS GPA), I doubt that I would have been accepted to any of above.

[DarkMatter565]

I think where Einstein would suffer is a college admission system that is simply a formula based on total SAT score + HS GPA. With English, languages, and other fields that didn’t interest him pulling him down; his overall stats down, he would not be among top applicants, so would be rejected. I’d expect Einstein to do better on a holistic system than just looking at stats.

What? Einstein would do far better in a college system based on SAT score + HS GPA than a holistic system.

You’re literally describing the British system here (High school grades + Test scores) for Oxford/Cambridge and they definitely do not admit ‘well-rounded’ students but students who score well on tests in their chosen subject + do well in academic interviews in their chosen subject.

[Data10]

@DarkMatter565

What? Einstein would do far better in a college system based on SAT score + HS GPA than a holistic system.

The quote said “a formula based on total SAT score”. If Einstein does poorly on EBRW, he is not going to have a high total SAT score. Similarly if Einstein does poorly in English/language classes, he is not going to have a high overall HS GPA (by selective college admission standards).

I was also focusing on US college admission system (note that I mentioned SAT score and test optional, rather than British college entrance exams). It’s true that the British system is different.

[roycroftmom]

The total SAT score isnt what Oxbridge looks at. They admit by subject. High math score plus high math entrance exam equals admit.
No sports, drama club president, or nonprofit startups required. GPA not an issue for foreign applicants. Language ability irrelevant.

[Data10]

@roycroftmom

The total SAT score isnt what Oxbridge looks at. They admit by subject. High math score plus high math entrance exam equals admit.

As stated, I was focusing on the SAT and US college admission system, rather than Oxford math entrance exam and British college admission system. That said, high math entrance exam does not automatically equal Oxford admit. One professor described the admission system as high entrance score (and other stats) as getting past first round, and interview determining who gets admitted. However, the specifics vary by subject.

[roycroftmom]

The interview is substantive. Math problems. Math reasoning. More like an oral exam than an interview. Obviously, it varies by subject, but the focus is always on the applicant’s aptitude for the specific subject sought.

Good thing that in his case, his school actually cared about his math ability as evidenced by demonstrated tests ( and still would). I don’t think he would fare well in the UC system.

[Canuckdad]

I fail to understand why a society is better off if someone is very bright as it relates to mathematics. I might take the view that society would be better off with people with profound knowledge of literature or music. Mathematics is one of many tools in our toolbox for life. And while the SAT’s don’t stop creative geniuses, it is preventing many schools from finding them.

[TonyGrace]

@Canuckdad

Einstein was not as interested in math to be considered in the top 5% of his class in math. This would not result in an SAT score that would get him into the 1500 SAT range. That is the point. And some students are singularly focused in math and the SAT is skewed in their favor.

None of my kids are in the top 5% of their class. All scored above a 1500, two with 800 in math. Only one of them would be described as STEMy, the other is in the middle math track for their school.

[Zrt42]

@Canuckdad

I fail to understand why a society is better off if someone is very bright as it relates to mathematics.

Your life is better in thousands of different ways because of mathematics. That comes from bright people, gifted in mathematics, who were educated & nutured.

@Canuckdad

And while the SAT’s don’t stop creative geniuses, it is preventing many schools from finding them

Please stop saying things like this. You may not realize it, but it is hateful. The students at our top universities are very creative AND gifted in mathematics and many other academic disciplines.

You have this monumental fear that creative geniuses that are not mathematically inclined, and/or don’t test well, are having their lives ruined because they are being denied a college education because of a low SAT score. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most colleges & universities accept just about everyone. There are choices and options, even for students in the bottom 10% of the SAT distribution.

For every creative genius you can find that stinks at math, there is another creative genius who is great at math. THAT is who belongs at our top universities. This is in your own best interest, even if you don’t appreciate it.

[worriedmomucb]

@Zrt42

, there is another creative genius who is great at math. THAT is who belongs at our top universities.

So is being great at math a prerequisite for being at a top university?

[Data10]

@roycroftmom

Good thing that in his case, his school actually cared about his math ability as evidenced by demonstrated tests ( and still would). I don’t think he would fare well in the UC system.

One key difference between the US and British entrance exam tests is the math SAT has a relatively low ceiling. An 800 SAT does not show that a student is an Einstein-level prodigy. Instead 800 scores are quite common among students studying math-heavy fields at highly selective colleges.

For example, prior to COVID test optional, the 25-75th percentile math scores ranges for various selective colleges are listed below. If you just looked at kids studying math-heavy fields, I’d expect the overwhelming majority of admits to be within a careless error of a perfect score.

25th to 75th Percentile Math SAT Range Prior to COVID
Caltech – 790 to 800
MIT – 780 to 800
Rice – 750 to 800
Vanderbilt – 750 to 800

If Einstein does manage to rapidly complete the multiple choice algebra/trig problems without making a careless error, it would not separate Einstein from a large portion of other applicants to math/science heavy fields. However, the holistic factors I mentioned earlier like incredible math/science out of classroom activities, insightful published research, and most gifted ever taught type LORs would. Similarly I don’t think the issue with UC system is Einstein needs a high math SAT score for colleges to know he is a math/physics prodigy, but UC does not look at scores. Instead it is the amount of admission weight given to other holistic factors beyond just HS GPA + SAT score, where Einstein would stand out more from other applicants.

[Zrt42]

@worriedmomucb

So is being great at math a prerequisite for being at a top university?

That was the drum that was being beaten by the person I responded to in that post.

[yikkblue]

@Canuckdad

I fail to understand why a society is better off if someone is very bright as it relates to mathematics

Because we often take things for granted. There is not a single moment in the modern world we weren’t enjoying the fruits of someone very bright in math. Ever drive a car, use GPS, cross a bridge, live in a house, turn on the light, use a computer, browse the Internet, login to an account, watch TV, to name just a few? We tend to forget these things don’t fall out of the sky.

[Thorsmom66]

But the SAT math section doesn’t test for creative genius and, to be frank, most people who do well on the SAT aren’t creative geniuses. True creative geniuses are pretty thin on the ground and are not apt to be identified by a test as basic as the SAT.

[hebegebe]

@Thorsmom66

Why are you bothering with the SAT for a 12 year old?

The SAT has been used for talent searches for young children. Both my children took it before age 13.

As a side effect, because they took it so early, they had zero anxiety about taking it again in high school.