What does “boxed out” mean? Please explain. Also, how are these students penalized?
What I see you as arguing here is that:
- Some people who are clearly in set A (academically gifted and highly creative people who should be at our best-resourced universities) might not also be in set S (people scoring 1500+ on the SAT)
Is that correct?
Are you also arguing that these sets are mutually exclusive; that is, that there are no people in both sets (or very few are in both sets)?
Well Einstein also played the violin and made some witty remarks (“God doesn’t play dice “ etc). So a holistic review would probably not have hindered him.
I just don’t get why selective universities should not take tests into consideration and weigh them as they deem appropriate
This is the key post in this entire thread.
In case Canuckdad doesn’t answer, would anyone else like to take a shot at defining what “boxed out” means and how the SAT penalizes kids who are not “elite” in math.?
I’m starting to wonder if I should draw some venn diagrams.
5 Likes
For whatever reason, I think (but I am not sure) that he feels that creativity & math aptitude are mutually exclusive.
Ok, it would be interesting if someone thinks that. I look forward to his clarification.
Why is this boxed-out discussion focused on math? After all, there are TWO scores that comprise the SAT.
2 Likes
I wondered that too, but I didn’t want to add more complexity until we could get some basic things straight. 
1 Like
Because one of the more ‘vocal’ posters feels that relying on a test that values mathematics will keep students with creative & imaginative minds out of our top universities. It is a common theme on this website that a meritocratic and standardized approach to admissions results in robots who have no creativity or interests outside of math & science. I think we all know students who are highly gifted in mathematics AND are creative & imaginative but (for reasons we can all theorize) this is upsetting to some people.
2 Likes
+1 vote for @tamagotchi ’s Venn diagram. Elite schools want both as demonstrated by wholistic admissions.
1 Like
I am so confused by the shuffling around the question that I believe tamagotchi raised. Seemed really straight forward to me.
To be the change I want to see in the world, I’ll answer them:
I think there can be a lot of overlap between groups A and S.
I think there can be a lot of kids in group S that don’t overlap with group A.
I think there can be a lot of kids in group A that don’t overlap with group S.
5 Likes
Huh? Don’t think this was ever my position.
“Someone” isn’t the same as “everyone.” I’m sure you understand that.
Upsetting to who, specifically?
Let’s keep it simple. If you excel at math, you can be a creative genius and get into a university with an SAT hurdle. But, even if you lack any creativity, you will still get in. If you are a creative genius and math is not your thing, you are not getting passed that SAT barrier for entry.
My concern is that students who are gifted but, not in math, are being adversely impacted by SAT requirements.
Gotcha.
I don’t think you or anyone here is upset that some people are talented in math and also creative/imaginative. I was just try be polite and let @Zrt42 identify such posters in case I am wrong.
Your concern is valid if SAT score is the only data point in an app, but it is far from one. Kids gifted in art and pursuing a visual and performing art major can submit art portfolios. Kids talented in music and creative writing can do auditions and provide writing samples. Their ECs and awards/honors will also lay out their accomplishments. Their SAT scores? I doubt AOs at places like Juilliard or USC film school care that much.
3 Likes
Ok, now with Venn diagrams!
So first of all, let’s establish sets A and S:
I think the following argument (“Disjoint Sets”) is a straw man, but if someone actually believes this, please speak up:
I do not really think that there are posters who believe the following (“A is a subset of S”) but I’m not sure. Sometimes it seems that people are making this argument:
I think most people here believe that there are some students in each group (A - S, S - A, and A ∩ S). However, I think there is disagreement about how many students are in each group, and how important it is to get students in the A - S and S - A groups admitted to top schools (or alternatively, how important it is for one or both groups of these students to be denied from top schools in order to preserve academic quality at those schools):
Does that make sense? Would anyone other than @beebee3 like to identify their opinions?
5 Likes
OK now make a Venn diagram of posters on this thread and their personal beliefs about the SAT 
6 Likes