<p>Thank you for posting this. It was incredibly provocative (in a good way!). I would be very interested in seeing the results of an experiment on children from mixed neighborhoods and from mostly-white neighborhoods. Just for my own curiosity and nothing else because my own personal experience has shown that the manner of dealing is vastly different for the people from those three types of neighborhoods.</p>
<p>I have been to many Asian american family homes. The dolls that the girls own are overwhelmingly caucasian. You try to find any variety of Asian dolls anyways. You may find one or two in TRU. The specialty shops, maybe. I was in Japan last year, and the Japanese girls tend to have caucasian dolls to play though all have the traditional Japanese doll collectons for keepsakes. It is difficult to go to a Japanese department store and find a Japanes doll to bring home–I don’t mean the souveneir dolls --I mean some plastic Japanese dolls for everyday play. And I was not in the touristy parts of Japan for most of my trip. Don’t get me wrong; I could find millions of souvenier kokeshi and geisha type dolls in the kimonos that are meant for the display cases. Also in the business district of Tokyo, the majority of young Japanese women are now round eyed as are all the cartoon characters on TV. Did not know the almond eye is now a recessive trait. Many Asians now with blonde aand red hair too. </p>
<p>As for African American girls in upscale homes, there are some with only black dolls which in the cases I know occurs through parental intervention, a mix–again with parental intervention. My friend told me that sadly, given the choice her mixed race daughter would pick the blonde baby doll each time, and the ethnic dolls that were given to her were the ones least played with. However, when I gave the little girl a beautiful Japanese doll --I had a heck of a time finding the danged thing with traditional garb that can be played with–that also had some pretty western type outfits, Japanese school uniform along with the gorgeous kimonos, she was delighted and it is now one of her favorites. Addy, the black American Girls dolls is her least favorite of that genre. I have purchased several Jess dolls because of the unique ethnic make up which happens to match mine, and I think Marisol, a controvesial Hispanic doll is very popular. My friend is looking for a good looking African American doll that would fit into her daughter’s collection similar to the Japanese doll I got, and she is going to find clothing and accessories for it to bring it up in the doll hierarchy. </p>
<p>Growing up, I had no Asian dolls as toys other than the wooden kokeshi. I did have a Japanese doll collection. I still have some of those dolls prominently displayed in my formal living room. I will say, though, I always prefered the brunette dolls, and Samantha, the American Girl brunette is by far the most popular of that series.</p>
<p>Thanks, Poetheart for introducing this topic. It has been of interest to me for years. I have no daughters so did not personally go through this with my children. My friends, some who are of mixed races and ethnic groups do, as do those moms who are also concerned about the stereotypical situations that dolls, especially some of them, can present. I was a heavy “doll” person as a child, and they were my most cherished belongings and well cared for. I wonder if the time and thought spent on it was what brought me to my main career-- motherhood rather than working outside as I am educationally well prepared to do. God has a sense of irony, though–I must have owned hundreds, probably in the thousands if you count the little plastic dolls, paper dolls, of dolls in my life. And we are talking ethnic groups, I know here. But I did not own many male dolls, nor do most girls I know. And I ended up with 5 boys! Also throws another question about the sex of the dolls.<br>
I"m saving your info, as it is of great interest to me.</p>
<p>“PoetsHeart - if you are trying to throw me into a corner, in opposition to you, you will fail.”</p>
<p>Wow, Aries…really, I don’t know what to say. I was totally taken aback by this response, because to “throw you into a corner”, or place you in the category of the “opposition”, was the last thing I had in mind to do.
I have been reading your posts on CC for years, and quite honestly, view you as being one of the most clear-headed and honest members of this board, as thoughtful and fair-minded, and one least given to emotional hysteria, and rhetorical hyperbole. I very often agree with the stances you take on the issues posted on the forum, or else, find them compelling and thought-provoking. So no, I have never been inclined to view you as “the opposition”.</p>
<p>But, I think we have been somewhat misunderstanding one another’s posts in this thread. In my initial post, I responded to the fact that Kiri Davis obtained almost identical results as those of the original experiment by stating: “But how could this be? Institutionalized segregation was struck down more than half a century ago. Why would black children still have such negative perceptions of what it means to be black?”</p>
<p>I felt then and there that Ms. Davis’ results proved that “segregation” could not have wholly accounted for the results obtained by Dr. Clark. I mistakenly thought that your assertion was that segregation had “nothing” to do with Clark’s results, which is why I responded the way I did in post #9. When you stated that you, “dislike (d) the conclusions drawn from the experiment”, I assumed you were speaking of the results obtained by Kiri Davis, as well as those obtained by Dr. Clark. That’s why I asked you, “what conclusion you would have drawn from the experiment”, a question which you have now answered very thoroughly and logically (as always :)). </p>
<p>I was lying in bed this morning, thinking about the Doll Test (as administered by both, Dr. Clark and Ms. Davis), and began to ask a lot of “what if” questions. Actually, I began that process around 3:00 a.m. this morning, when I submitted post #16. But I was pretty bleary-eyed by that time, and somewhat brain-fried to boot, so I just decided to fall into bed and give it more thought in the morning. So, here I am, giving it more thought, and realizing that one of the things about the Doll Test that had been giving me problems was just what you mentioned in your last post: a "lack of experimental “Controls”. I am not a scientist, and didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I did take a couple of intro psych courses, and one of first the things we learned about legitimate scientific research is that “Controls” are an absolute requirement. I’m not sure what would reliably and logically serve as THE Control to these experiments, but another experimental imperative, apparently missing in the Doll Test is is the introduction of “Variables”. As this thread matures, these types of “what if” questions you and others have posed are logically inevitable.</p>
<p>Incidentally, my D and I talked about Kiri Davis’ film early in the evening yesterday, and she wondered aloud how the results might have differed had the children in the experiments been economically affluent, or the offspring of highly educated parents. She was thinking specifically about kids like her young cousins (my sister’s children), who grew up in a very racially diverse neighborhood, with parents earning well into the six figures. I began to wonder how my niece and nephew would have responded to this study as well. The results of The Doll Test, as compelling as they are, are extremely limited. The Experiment needs to be redesigned and considerably widened.</p>
<p>Good posts, all, questioning the lack of control to the experiment. </p>
<p>I hate “tests” like this one and refuse to cooperate if asked such limited and stupid questions. I presume the children in the study had no such choice.</p>
<p>Such questions are on the order of “When did you stop beating your wife?” Which doll is “bad?” That’s a terrible thing to make a child choose. And having answered that question, to have to say which doll looks like you. I’d be pretty grim too.</p>
<p>I was in a research study once where they showed photos of women who had completed household chores–“which woman is happy? satisfied? proud? feels accomplished? tired?”–How should I know? I concluded the research company wasn’t interested in truth or accuracy, but probably had an agenda set by its client.</p>
<p>It would be interesting to do the experiment with a variety of racially diverse children AND racially diverse dolls. Or a black doll wearing a pleasant expression and a white doll with a scowl.</p>
<p>poetsheart – You thought of me!</p>
<p>Very interesting and sad retake on that earlier dolls’ experiment.</p>
<p>I want to point out something that has not been mentioned on this thread. That is that there has been a remarkable improvement, from my observations, in African-Americans’ self-esteem in this country.</p>
<p>I recall my junior high school days back in the early 1960’s in Washington, D.C., where “negroes” were bussed-in to the white neighborhood school I attended. In those days the vast majority of “those” kids exhibited (it was in their eyes – if one dared to look!) that inner “anger” that is mentioned here. It was very intimidating, if not frightening, to most of the “white” kids in the school. There were exceptions, of course, to the hostile faces we saw, but they were, I believe, the ones with lighter skin color – which agrees with earlier comments about that making a difference in one’s self-perception. </p>
<p>With that none too pleasant prospect of seeing a “race” of angry classmates, it was not often one could look past the hostility to see and appreciate the natural beauty that African-Americans embody. There are exceptions, but on the whole that “race” has a sensual attractiveness that, I dare say, is second to none – borne of a natural environment (Africa) which allowed for the “full” expression of one’s physical being to develop. (Duh – did the warm climate encourage that evolutionary effect?!)</p>
<p>Do you think that White-America has not noticed? Ever wonder why white girls have surgery for fuller lips and breasts; why white men are obsessed with being “jacked”?</p>
<p>Fortunately, for Black-Americans, and for society, the intervening decades have been kind to them. Now it seems much of that “anger” has dissipated and one sees a palpable difference in Black-Americans’ overall bearing. Whereas once it was the exception to see a Black-American in “repose”, if you will, it is now much, much closer to the rule.</p>
<p>Still, it is troubling to see that in SOME areas of this country, things have not changed, according to the recent dolls experiment. Perhaps a broader sampling would give a truer picture of what we have.</p>
<p>Oh, and no more “fragmented sentences”! ; )</p>
<p>PoetsHeart - I very much apologize for the misunderstanding.</p>
<p>I was referring solely to Dr. Clarks’ study. Frankly, I do not think that the second study was even needed to prove that Dr. Clark overstated the results of his study - very simply, he in no way even introduced segregation as an issue in his study (such as by comparing segregated and non-segregated children). It’s much like using that study to show that totalitarianism is bad, because many blacks couldn’t vote. It’s a classic example of finding exactly what you are looking for.</p>
<p>I honestly thought that your response was because, well, many people who read something like, “This study doesn’t show that xxx has yyy effects,” seem to think that I’m endorsing xxx. </p>
<p>On another note, interestingly, African-Americans often have the highest self-esteem (measured by some surveys), while Asian-Americans have the lowest. The study demonstrated that self-esteem correlates negatively with group achievement. Then again, I guess it’s all in how you define “self-esteem.”</p>
<p>Hey Aries, no problem. 
Misunderstandings occur pretty often on internet forums, something that I have no doubt you already know. It seems that no matter how carefully you word a posting, it may easily be misinterpreted, handicapped as it is by the inability to equal face-to-face conversation. By the way, you are among the CC celebrities whom I’d most like to meet in person. You have always been, and remain top-drawer in my book.;)</p>
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<p>Thank you for posting this (not just this snip but all of it). From your words, I can truly begin to understand how devastating this would be for African-Americans whose roots go back through US slavery. What can be done to try to change or heal the shame and loss? The ripples continue to strangle the psyches of young black Americans generation after generation. What can we do to help?</p>
<p>BTW, I teach US history to 8th graders, and I make it a point help them become aware of the irony of the Declaration of Independence “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (unless you were a slave or a Native American).” Teachers today are much better at painting a full picture of history, in all its complexity. I love our country and always tell students that; however, there are times when the former leaders ****** up and didn’t act with fairness for various reasons, and I let them see that, too.</p>
<p>Actually, the native Hawaiians are also seeking reparations in federal legislation that has not been successful thus far. Chinese and Japanese Americans have suffered considerable discrimination as well.</p>
<p>Funny how those black girls are actually georgeous!! so sad.</p>
<p>whoever said the results aren’t accurate because of the number of kids (21)
well, i volunteer at a daycare center (i’n black myself) and it’s shocking how true it is.
one kids refused to go and play outside because she would “get darker”, “uglier”.</p>
<p>And at the same time, when I moved to the US from Africa at a younger age, i thought blond hair was terribly ugly and blue eyes were scary. Being fat is/was even desirable and i felt bad for being skinny (sign of poverty, fruitlessness). lol
My conceptions have changed now though.
It’s so suprising how different things are in other parts of the world that haven’t been influenced by the west -very few countries. lol)</p>
<p>I also agree that the white ‘barbie doll’ American beauty standards is terribly affecting young African Americans (especially females) even with accepting themselves.
Hip Hop music videos are a classic example. most times those girls are biracial or not even black (or they’re blacks with white features) and many black girls want to be/emulate like these video girls which is so sad.</p>
<p>Hair is another issue many people don’t talk about.
I know some black people who have no clue what the texture of their natural hair is because they’re used to putting damaging chemicals in it to make it straight.
wearing your natural hair (Afros e.t.c) is a sign of rebellion/ extremism according to many business and even police policies.
It’s sad a lot of times not to feel accepted. or feel you have to change yourself to be accepted.</p>