In Catholicism, sex only within the confines of marriage is “baked in.” (Although I can tell you as a lifelong Catholic that many of the faithful do not order that particular dish.)
However, I think in many denominations, it’s not religious teaching per se so much as it is the influence of the community. Faye was no doubt pressured to be a “good girl,” which in those days meant marriage, children, tending to the home, and not straying in any way from established social norms. Henry was pressured as well – for example, to want only the “good girl” — remember how shocked he was to discover that Faye had sexual desires? It could be that part of their passivity stems from this upbringing. They don’t want to be where they are, but they can’t act because they have been taught they shouldn’t. Don’t experiment sexually, it’s wrong; don’t work outside the home, it’s wrong; don’t divorce, it’s wrong; don’t step outside your defined gender roles, it’s wrong. So they become paralyzed. And then, frustrated and discontented, the one move Faye finally does make is the very one that truly IS wrong: abandoning Samuel.
I was watching Antiques Roadshow while I was ironing. The show was from Chicago and it was one I had recorded. One of the items brought in was a subpoena signed by The Chicago Seven. I couldn’t believe how it tied in with the book. It was worth $5,000 to $10,000.
I gave up on The Nix, having tried twice . I first time when it was released. I enjoyed it more the second attempt, but for the many reasons stated above, just stopped reading, when I got to the Alice sexual escapades with Charlie.
I hoped to find a plot synopsis online to be able to appreciate the discussion here, but didn’t find one. . Thank you, for indulging a few questions and helping me put the puzzle together.
First, why did Faye just walk out on her? Does Samuel forgive her?
Second, Periwinkle ( the publishing agent ) was Sebastian, the snitch infiltrating the riots!!!
Does Periwinkle give Samuel his publishing break because he’s Faye’s son?
How does Periwinkle reveal to Samuel he is Faye’s former lover?
Third- Samuel does write his mother’s story? Why did she attack Packer???
I read the last chapter and know that Faye didn’t stay in Norway, but returned to care for her father in Iowa.
I mostly couldnt tolerate, the underlying misogynistic tone of the book. A CC poster mentioned this early in discussion. I didn’t want my head filled with any more Nathan Hill.
@mary13 I loved reading your sister’s first hand account of the riots/ and concert in Chicago. Those were perilous times, I was in 8th grade in 68, and those turbulent years formed my world view.
Please thank her for sharing her memories, expressed so beautifully, with such clarity. Relevant and enriching to read,
Yes, yes, yes, I thought perhaps the girl who ordered the medication may have been killed from it, and perhaps Faye lived with that guilt. I had hoped Nathan Hill was addressing some “feminist” issues, about birth control, right to choose, but alas, the next section was the Henry, kicking his beloved daughter to the curb, for the same predicament he ran from in Norway??? What a coward.
I have never understood “penance” where you do something difficult and unappealing to yourself to atone for something else. This affects other people and I don’t see how it helps anyone else involved.
For example, Faye’s penance of going home and marrying Henry whom she had ambivalent feelings about—how was that good or fair to Henry or Samuel? How does she ever do anything to help Henry whom she abandoned (yeah, I know she got Sebastian to notice Samuel, but nothing directly between her and him for 20 years)? How does her providing some emotional support for her deluded dad help Henry or Samuel? I’m sorry, I really don’t get it.
I really dislike Sebastian aka Periwinkle. What an opportunist!
^ as I stated I ditched the book, so I am guessing now about Faye’s motivation to care for her father, or as it is referred do here, doing “penance”.
@himom isn’t Faye’s caretaking the ultimate display of “forgiving” her father’s mistreatment of her,?
Didn’t she mistreat her son, most horrendous way, and gained wisdom?
Perhaps, sacrificing for her father, doing something for someone else, is her way or ultimately “forgiving herself”.
So, Faye’s self sacrificing, is “more about,and,for herself” , than for her father ?
Could Nathan Hill allow the progtagonist, to abandon everyone, always ? Tidy ending
Ok, yes, I understand Faye caring for her dad who isn’t sure who she is shows her forgiving her dad but still am baffled about how she can selfishly abandon her husband and son for over 20 years and counting. I’m sorry, but she seems a very flawed character. Not as shallow as Laura but still very flawed nonetheless.
@VeryHappy - it seems that every female character was deeply flawed.
Hill’s unsympathetic treatment of Faye’s life and reason for abandoning her family. I realize this was intentional by the author, to create mystery around her. But, if there isn’t a Kramer vs Kramer moment ( Meryl Streep crying as she testifies about her life and her love for her son) then Faye isn’t fully fleshed out,
Faye and the “ mean girl” set up with the pharmacy, Faye’s need for acceptance,
Faye’s first semi- sexual experience with Henry, and the “good girl” vs slut, double standard.
Bethany ,slightly creepy love obsession, goes into bedroom, after showing Samuel the letter, woman as temptress.
Laura, spoiled, lying,brat,
Sexual relationship between Alice and Charlie, which I just skimmed was depressing.
Nathan Hill didn’t seem sympathetic to the female characters.
“Not planting in emotional soil” as stated in The NY Times review, explains it better.
Nathan Hill describes childhood ( lots of alone time ) and process of writing the Nix. ( the guy can write well)
Faye was a flawed character, but because she was broken by her horrible Dad. She doesn’t really know how to be a good mother, but her behind the scenes work to get Samuel published came out of her guilt about that. I didn’t feel any need to like her, or forgive her. I think it was pretty amazing that in the end Samuel does come to forgive her, if not explicitly, at least implicitly.
@SouthJerseyChessMom I was going to attempt on an explanation of why the author’s treatment of female characters bothered me but you did it so much more eloquently.
@veryhappy I will just add that I felt Hill was just more sympathetic and kinder in his depiction of the male characters. As an example Officer Brown who was just pure nasty has been given enough of a background to explain his neediness of Alice and his subsequent actions. You kind of understand his motivation when you read about his wife, who (like every other woman in the book) is portrayed in a poor light.
Along with the many little things that puzzled me in this book, what the heck was Faye’s reason for not telling Samuel about her Chicago time when he asks? It’s like the author made people keep secrets for the sake of keeping them.
All the characters in the book were flawed, male and female. I see what you guys are saying about the misogynistic treatment of women, but when I read the book, I thought just about everyone was thrown into different stereotypical and often sexist rolls. Laura was the spoiled, entitled millenial. Pwnage was the disheveled, loser gamer. Faye was an overacheiver in an attempt to win her father’s approval. Sebastion was the sell out. The home ec teacher going after her MRS degree, the mean girl, the bully, and on and on…
That’s how I saw it, too – more misanthropic than misogynistic. But I’m listening and I hear you all – and maybe I wasn’t “woke” enough. It’s true there are many examples listed above of peripheral female characters who were shallow, selfish, spoiled, etc. However, I did like the brief glimpse we had of Freya and her daughter. And Faye’s mom seemed loving. (Do we know whatever happened to her?)
Periwinkle and Sebastian are one and the same person.
Periwinkle gives Samuel his publishing break at Faye's urging.
Faye is actually throwing stones at Periwinkle (an aide to Governor Packer), not the Governor himself.
Periwinkle reveals his true identity to Samuel once Faye gives him the green light to share everything that happened in Chicago.
Samuel does write his mother's story, and he does forgive her:
I should add that Samuel also writes his mother’s other “fake news” story about her being the Packer Attacker, “a scandalous biography of Faye Andersen-Anderson, written by her own son.” He does this as part of an agreement with Periwinkle to make Judge Brown, and Faye’s criminal charges, disappear.
Even though The Nix is a mixed bag of treats, I admired Hill’s skill. The voices! Compare Laura’s to Pwnage’s to Frank’s to Alice’s. They are all distinctly different and compelling in their own way, despite how we may feel about the characters.
@SouthJerseyChessMom: I mentioned the anti-feminism in post #65 when I said: “Personally I would have respected Faye’s decision to leave Henry and Samuel at least somewhat had she left to resume her education or to try to recoup lost ground potential-wise. But, no, she left to live with Sebastian and then she left him. Some anti-feminism going on and the antithesis of her father’s description of Faye.” (Geez, I’m quoting myself. 8-| )
My problem is less that the female characters are flawed - so are the male characters - but rather that all female actions are nothing more than a reaction to a male character’s action.
Margaret and her abortion scheme: pregnant by Jules and has to get supplies without her father knowing. (And aren’t you glad Jules dumped her.)
Faye leaves home because her father kicks her out; she leaves college because of Charlie Brown; she marries Henry because he’s the only option(?); she leaves Henry to pursue Sebastian (Did they keep in touch? How did she locate him?)
Even Alice (who I still like) runs from Charlie Brown (though I think that was a wise decision. I think he would have pursued her if he hadn’t been gravely injured.)
Bethany marries Peter because Samuel chooses the wrong door. (Why was that the only option? She’ll be with Samuel if he agrees but if not she’ll marry Peter. [-( )
And the big one: Faye lets Periwinkle and Simon and Charlie Brown write the Packer Attacker narrative. Me - the minute I got arrested, I would have started talking. No reason to keep secret the fact that I threw rocks at my a$$hole ex-lover rather than the governor. But no, Faye chooses to keep her mouth shut and be charged as a terrorist.
I’m slightly younger than Faye but the girls I knew at that time weren’t quite the doormat. FWIW: I took home ec in 1971. Some boys were in the class. Most of the girls headed off to college - a few to get that Mrs. degree but by no means all.