<p>Thanks for recommending this book. I’m halfway done and really looking forward to the discussion.</p>
<p>Happy April (Fool’s Day :)) and welcome to our discussion of The Orchardist.</p>
<p>Here are Discussion Questions to get us rolling–or go ahead and just express whatever is on your mind:</p>
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<p>I’ll begin with #1, because I think Talmadge is the anchor of the story–the rock solid “tree” (to follow through with orchardist imagery) that both feeds and shelters others. </p>
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<p>“Deliberate” is the adjective that first comes to mind when I think of Talmadge. “Deliberate” as in (according to my thesaurus) “careful, cautious, measured, regular, even, steady.” All of those apply. At times, his deliberate nature risks becoming “plodding” – he tends to second-guess his every move. At one point, Coplin writes that Talmadge “gravely doubted himself,” and I wondered if perhaps that was his tragic flaw. Yet, in the end, when he sets doubt aside and insists upon going forward with a plan that Clee and Caroline Middey know is foolish, there are devastating results. Talmadge spends much of his life tortured by the feeling that he has not done enough (mostly for Della), but is then punished when he tries to rectify that by doing too much (in attempting to free her). </p>
<p>Although flawed and very human, Tallmadge nonetheless has a certain savior-like quality–the Christian imagery was subtle but inescapable. In Talmadge’s quest for Della, I kept thinking of the Parable of the Lost Sheep: *“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?”<a href=“Luke%2015:4”>/i</a> Wikipedia quotes a famous protestant hymn based on the parable:</p>
<p>There were ninety and nine that safely lay
In the shelter of the fold.
But one was out on the hills away,
Far off from the gates of gold.
Away on the mountains wild and bare.
Away from the tender Shepherd’s care.
Away from the tender Shepherd’s care.</p>
<p>[Parable</a> of the Lost Sheep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Lost_Sheep]Parable”>Parable of the Lost Sheep - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>The light in the orchard is “piercingly golden” (p. 418); Della leaves its safety and Talmadge’s tender care and heads into the dangerous mountains, where “storms raged” (p. 193).</p>
<p>Wikipedia describes that parable as having themes of loss, searching and rejoicing. The Orchardist shares those themes–the first two at any rate; it’s a little light on the rejoicing.</p>
<p>“Deliberate” seems like a good word for Talmadge. He drove me crazy. I kept wanting to kick him and make him talk or something! In the end I came to see him, like the girls, as damaged goods. He never really recovered from the disappearance of his sister. Disappearance is much, much worse than a certain death.</p>
<p>Mary, your definition of “deliberate” for Talmadge is a good one. The first word that came into my mind when I read the question was “sad”. Mathmom, I agree with your desire to kick Talmadge. He was a frustrating character to read.</p>
<p>Yes, deliberate. But like mathmom, Talmadge’s behavior frustrated me. He was so solid, such a kind, strong, and generous “tree”, but his quest to save Della–the lost sheep–in his role as shepherd, while abandoning Angelina (even in she was left under Caroline’s watch), drove me nuts. Perhaps it’s because I thought of Della not as a lost lamb, but more feral kitten turned cat, and herding cats is, well, you know… This is such a sad story, and demonstrates again and again how the despicable actions or sins of one person (Michaelson) can have such long lasting consequences.</p>
<p>I haven’t finished rereading The Orchardist, so am grateful that the book club selection is one I’ve already read. </p>
<p>Anyway, this passage struck me the second time around:</p>
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<p>Here, I see Talmadge: deliberate, nurturing, patient. He survives his early life because of those qualities. I see Della as “failed … destroyed … by circumstance.” Angeline, of course, flourishes. I think of Della as a hopeless cause. Maybe she could have recovered from her time with Michaelson but not with Jane’s suicide added into the mix.</p>
<p>I don’t like to think of Talmadge as damaged: I prefer haunted. He feels the loss of his sister not only as her brother but also as her protector. He blames himself in ways he can’t define. With Della, he blames himself again, feeling he should have done more when Michaelson appears in the orchard.</p>
<p>I must be a glass half-full type of person. I don’t even see Talmadge as a sad figure. Talmadge builds a life from nothing. He’s respected in town, has a few close friends - close enough to be considered extended family, and ends his life loved and cared for by the person he loves and cares for most. Sad would have been no orchard, friends, family. I see his failure with Della as inevitable, but his success lies with Angeline.</p>
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<p>[IoS</a> book review: The Orchardist, By Amanda Coplin - Reviews - Books - The Independent](<a href=“IoS book review: The Orchardist, By Amanda Coplin | The Independent | The Independent”>IoS book review: The Orchardist, By Amanda Coplin | The Independent | The Independent)</p>
<p>Anyway, another thought hit me as I reread (off on a tangent, here): Jane gives birth to Angeline but Della gives the girl the gift of life. Jane instructs Della to drown the infant and Della deviates from the plan, hiding the baby. I think she already trusts enough in Talmadge to know that he’ll find the infant and no harm will come to her.</p>
<p>I like “haunted” as a description word for Talmadge, but I still think he was sad, and I felt sad when reading much of the book. There was definitely a “melancholy” aura surrounding the story. Talmadge felt too responsible for all the girls in his life and couldn’t let go of what he “should have done”.</p>
<p>I’m not even sure that Angeline was happy. I guess she had happy moments in the orchard and she was often content, but truly happy…I don’t know. Did we ever get to know her well enough to know the answer to that question? At the end of the story we know she has left the orchard, but do we know if she’s really happy? I would love for someone to change my mind and show me what I missed. I loved Angeline’s apple seed gift to Della. It was a message of hope for a new beginning.</p>
<p>I focused on the role of the ‘orchardist:’ planting, cultivating, nurturing, grafting, pruning, harvesting. I think Talmadge embodied all of these traits except for pruning.
Because he never fully recovered from the loss of his sister, he was unable to shape or ‘prune’ Della. And unlike Talmadge, who was able to make a solid life for himself despite his losses, Della never fully recovered from her earlier life with Michaelson. She is the opposite of Talmadge, cultivating and nurturing.</p>
<p>I did see a biblical analogy to Moses when Della saved the infant Angelene:
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<p>Yes, I thought of Moses too.</p>
<p>I see Talmadge as the pruner, but ultimately he’s a failure both as an orchardist and as a pruner of his young women. Or half a failure. The orchard barely survives his lifetime, Angelene goes on to other things. Like BUandBC, I’m not convinced that she wasn’t also somewhat damaged by Della’s absence in her life.</p>
<p>That’s interesting, because I thought that Della’s presence (or lack thereof) in Angelene’s life was more damaging than if Talmadge had completely ‘pruned’ Della out of their lives after she left to go with the horsemen.</p>
<p>12rmh18: I agree with everything in post #29 and ^^^. But should Talmadge “prune” Della out of their lives? The obvious answer, of course, has to be “yes” and I think a part of him wants to do so. Still, he can’t nor can he with his sister nor could he if something befalls Angelene. Constancy can be another adjective describing the man:</p>
<pre><code>1. The quality of being faithful and dependable.
2. The quality of being enduring and unchanging.
</code></pre>
<p>And that’s a good quality to have and his Achilles heel at the same time.</p>
<p>mathmom: How can you say Talmadge fails as an orchardist? Maybe the orchard barely survives his lifetime but the orchard only exists because of Talmadge. It provides a good living for him during his lifetime and serves as a place of refuge for others. Whether or not the orchard provides the same for Angelene after his death seems beside the point. Perhaps it may be closer to the truth to say that the orchard does not survive Angelene - not that I think it should necessarily.</p>
<p>ignatius, I agree. I think Talmadge struggles with the contradiction of needing to ‘prune’ the dead branches - and one could make an argument that after Jane died, so did a part of Della - and the need to remain constant. I did not like particularly like Della, so of course I was hoping Talmadge would prune her. At the same time, I knew that he could/would not because of his sister.</p>
<p>Della was looking for Jane to be somewhere in her life. At first she felt Jane in the horses, but that feeling was eventually lost. She kept on looking and I kept waiting for Della to discover that Jane was in Angeline. I thought for sure that would be the happy ending. Oh well, I was wrong.</p>
<p>Yeah, I wanted something happier! I felt so sorry for Della.</p>
<p>But I also wish that something physical of that orchard had remained. There’s nothing more magnificent than plantings that go back centuries. Maybe it’s in Angelene’s memories.</p>
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<p>I agree – she was like a wild animal. Clee observes this about her: “The black eyes burning: and in them no insanity but the insanity to live: the pure animal will decked with human desire. This one was too fierce to die” (p. 62).</p>
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<p>Me, too, and I felt a little guilty about that given what Della had been through. I admired Talmadge’s relentless devotion because there was a part of me that just wanted Della to stay out of his and Angelene’s life. Her presence always made me uneasy, as if she endangered the lives of the other characters (which in a way, she did).</p>
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<p>Nice. That makes me feel a little better about Della :). Hiding the baby is one of the few times she steps outside her own pain to pay attention to someone else’s needs. </p>
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<p>I do see Talmadge as a sad figure, but I don’t think he sees himself that way, so I guess his opinion trumps mine! He believes that raising Angelene has been an extraordinary gift, and in that regard, considers himself a very lucky man.</p>
<p>I also see Angelene as sad – melancholy, as BUandBC82 said. I wanted just a little hint that she found some happiness—perhaps a line that she sold the orchard because she was getting married, or a mention that she came back to visit the orchard with her children. But…nada.</p>
<p>Somehow, I thought Maggie P. would reappear and bring some brightness into Angelene’s life. I had visions of her trying to track down Della and ending up at Talmadge’s orchard, happily picking fruit for life.</p>
<p>I had a hard time connecting with the characters, although I did really like the book. I felt a connection to the orchard itself, with its strong sense of place. It was interesting in the end that Angeline did the same thing that Marie (?) did in the end of The Glass Room - returned to the place of her childhood as an outsider. </p>
<p>I also hoped that there would be some indication of what had happened to the sister.</p>
<p>Hi…so nice to “see” everyone again!</p>
<p>I loved the beginning of this book, but then it got too melancholy for me. I wanted something happy to happen. What can I say? I am a sucker for a hopeful ending.</p>
<p>Having said that, I very much enjoyed Talmadge as a character. His strength, integrity and kindness left an impression on me. I agree that his flaw was his unresolved guilt over his sister, resulting in his need to save Della. </p>
<p>I felt sad that that in the end the orchard was allowed to deteriorate…those poor apricots.</p>
<p>It was a touching book…but can we read something more upbeat next time?</p>
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Me, too. I kept expecting Jane and Della to be her children. I believe, at different times, we were told they all had dark hair. I thought there would be a connection later in the book…I was wrong…again. :)</p>
<p>I will give this book an “okay” rating. I didn’t love it. I thought it started off well, dragged in the middle, and ended okay. I’m with psychmom - The book was too sad for me.</p>
<p>Did anyone else have a hard time with the time of this book? I had a hard time getting it put into the 19th century. Della wandering off doing men’s jobs. Not too many references to anything terribly historical.</p>
<p>We had someone in our family (cousin) disappear. It leaves a terrible hole.</p>