<p>Thanks ignatius! I had forgotten about the scene with Angelene reading to Talmadge.</p>
<p>When I first read the Rapunzel passage, I supposed that was the chosen fairy tale because Angelene is like Rapunzel, isolated in her ivory tower (the orchard), surrendered at birth to a caretaker who is not her parent. Of course, Angelene’s caretaker is good rather than wicked, and she is relatively content, appreciating “the freedom that comes from knowing you are the only human for miles, and the freedom to sing, to talk to yourself, to laugh, and of course, if need be—but there was hardly ever need for this—to cry” (p. 215).</p>
<p>And Ignatius, re those apricots, I don’t want to go through the book and try to match up the mentions of ripte apricots with whatever season it was supposed to be whenever they were mentioned…but it seemed to me that ripe apricots were ALWAYS being talked about. Which led me to the strange thought that perhaps the apricots were somehow not real. :)</p>
<p>NJTM: It was not so much your mention of the apricots but the Amazon reader review that prompted me to look. I know nothing about Washington state produce and, honestly, don’t care to know. Reviews of the book indicated The Orchardist was spot-on in so many ways, and yet the Amazon reader review was so contrariwise, I looked it up.</p>
<p>And you’re right … lots of apricots harvested. ;)</p>
<p>That makes sense that Jane and Della could all be in Talmadges mind-Clee and Angelene also? And Caroline?
I still want the backstory of all these charactors though.</p>
<p>Driven to look up apricots…the things I do for love of literature.</p>
<p>Apparently, apricots symbolize…everything. The first site I looked at mentioned that in apricot folklore (who knew?) the fruit represents doubt. How perfect for Talmadge, I thought. But that symbolism became significantly watered down when I came across a list of many other meanings:</p>
<p>The Chinese regard the apricot as a symbol of cowardice.
([Apricot</a> - CopperWiki](<a href=“CopperWiki”>Apricot - CopperWiki))</p>
<p>Apricots, it seems, are all things to all people. </p>
<p>Why doesn’t Della eat any of the (nine—why nine?) apricots that Talmadge brings her? Nor does she discard them – she lets them rot in the bag under her cot. Perhaps they symbolize the way in which she keeps Talmadge at arms length, yet never completely rejects him. In any case, I’m pretty sure they don’t represent her success in the Chinese imperial examination system. :)</p>
<p>PATheaterMom, I have wondered, too, about all the possible backstories. I would say it’s a compliment to the novel that we are left frustrated. I think it’s better for a book to leave the reader wanting more, to keep you thinking about the histories and fates of characters, rather than have you not care to hear any further details.</p>
<p>Re backstories, what does everyone think about the mystery of Elsbeth? Her story reminded me of the traditional Indian Captivity Narrative, which was so popular during the settling of the West. Almost always, Indian Captivity Narratives center on women, and it is thought that although many stories were true, others were fabricated to act as allegories expressing the ways in which women were subjugated in white society.</p>
<p>I think Elsbeth came to harm, perhaps kidnapped by Indians or carried off by wild animals. Mostly, I base that on the fact that Clee found her bonnet and basket, and on the feeling that she wouldn’t deliberately hurt Talmadge so terribly. Yet Caroline Middey implies that it might have been something else:</p>
<p>^^^ I agree that Elsbeth came to harm, in a wrong place at the wrong time kind of way.</p>
<p>Caroline Middey continues her line of thought:
</p>
<p>I enjoy this book club but I feel like the C- student here. It never occurred to me to wonder about a possible connection between Elsbeth and the girls. Or the Indians helping with the apple picking in exchange for a safe haven to break horses: I mean, why wouldn’t they? It did catch my attention that Della let the apricots rot but never to attach significance as to why nine apricots? Nine fit in the bag? Nine apricots were ripe enough to bring? I just looked and the season is right for ripe apricots, so no insights there. Maybe I’m the D+ student - well-behaved and I do the work. (If I had to guess as to why Della doesn’t eat the apricots, well, to eat them would open doors she closed long ago. Letting them rot, I don’t think she knows how to do otherwise.)</p>
<p>^ Now, now ignatius, this is a school founded on the principles of Progressive Education. No grades here, only Francis W. Parker’s belief that “the end and aim of all education is the development of character.” And your character is singularly impressive. ;)</p>
<p>Nine apricots…Maybe prison for Della was like being in the Ninth Circle of Hell. Nah, you’re right. Talmadge probably just couldn’t fit 10 in the bag.</p>
<p>Maybe Della has more trouble resisting Angelene than she does Talmadge. At least, curiosity about the girl remains, if nothing else. And perhaps, she doesn’t eat the apricots because … isn’t there an old saying … you can’t eat your apricot and have it, too. On the other hand, the glowing fresh apricots might represent Angelene and the later rot, Della.</p>
<p>If you want to attach significance to nine apricots, it has been nine years since Angelene has seen Della. (I looked it up - p 130-131. :))</p>
<p>I appreciate the fact that you guys make me think above and beyond my surface reading … even if I still think nine, ripe apricots fit in the bag and so got sent to Della. But you’ve got me wondering: a big deal was made of those apricots.</p>
<p>I would give ignatius an A+! In fact, I’ll give everyone an A+, but please, let’s not do grades… :eek:</p>
<p>I like the Angeline/Rapunzel comparison. It helps me believe that eventually there was a “happily ever after” for Angeline.</p>
<p>I’m afraid I didn’t read too much into the apricots at first. Now you’ve got me thinking about them. How about this…After you eat the outside of an apricot, or let it rot away, there is a seed in the middle. Angeline also sent Della an apple seed. I menitoned upthread that I really liked that gift. I thought Angeline was offering Della hope and a new beginning. Maybe the apricots, with their seeds in the middle was a similar gift. Perhaps Angeline was asking Della to come home and plant “roots” in the orchard.</p>
<p>I believe Talmadge did more than he knew for Della-it had to have affected her that he visited her and tried to help her. Even if she didn’t acknowlege him in the jail cell.
Talmadge and Caroline were great surrogate parents to Angelene. I hope she had a happy adult life after the orchard.</p>
<p>I like and agree! When I went back to look at the passage about the gift of the apple seed, I noticed</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Della hid both gifts from Angelene in her mattress. I really do think Della did not eat the apricots because as I said before: you can’t have your apricots and eat them too. Having the apricots from Angelene meant something to her.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree. Clee, his wrangler, and riders rounded out Angelene’s family.</p>
<p>When I think of apricots, I think of peaches; soft, ripe, slightly fuzzy, juicy, and that beautiful and hopeful color. Della’s apricots, the gift from Angelene, were picked slightly unripened, to be finished in a paper bag. I associate the number nine with the human gestation period of nine months. Nine slightly unripened apricots, given by a sister’s child on the verge of womanhood, to the aunt who was responsible for said child’s life. I’m just playing free association, but that’s the fun of reading what you’re able to into an object that’s mentioned over and over :)</p>
<p>I still don’t know what to make of Talmadge’s sister’s disappearance. I don’t think we were given enough information to assume anything but a tragic ending for her.</p>
<p>I’m sitting here pondering anagrams of a-p-r-i-c-o-t.</p>
<p>An anagram of apricot is parotic, which means “situated about or near the ear,” and Talmadge is described as having “elephantine” ears, “the flesh granular like the rind of some fruit” (p. 3).</p>
<p>Free association is FUN.</p>
<p>But I’ll move on, now that we’ve beaten the apricots to death, or at least into marmalade.</p>
<p>So…on to a grimmer topic: Do you think Della fell accidentally from the scaffolding, or did she commit suicide? I feel it’s the latter – she died from a broken neck, as if finally fulfilling Jane’s instructions to her.</p>
<p>I felt that the fall was an accident, but an ironic one, given the earlier events in the orchard. </p>
<p>As for accuracy, I don’t know about produce seasons, but I did kind of smile when Talmadge looked out “his plate glass window” (not sure of page #). Page 44 also mentions the “plate glass windows”. Plate glass windows in a rustic cabin in Washington would have been unlikely in 1900.</p>
<p>A couple of connections: on page 13, Elsbeth is wearing a sky blue apron she has made from some fabric. On page 323, Angelene wears a sky blue silk dress when she goes to see Della in Chelan. </p>
<p>We are also told the names of Talmadge’s aunts, two of whom were twins (Minna and Martha) - don’t twins often run in families? Della chooses the name Angelene, which she thinks is somehow similar to her mother’s name. Elsbeth’s full name is Elsbeth Colleen.</p>
<p>It never even entered my mind that Della committed suicide. She wasn’t able to kill herself when Michaelson showed up at the orchard the first time. It’s possible that despair over her life pushed her to the edge, but I don’t think so. Della always took risks with her life…the horses, working on the tree as a topper, living with the men, living in the wilderness… She needed the adrenaline rush to feel life. She also thought she might find Jane’s spirit somewhere in the risky things she did with her life. Della didn’t care enough about her own life to be safe. I think it was an accident.</p>
<p>Sylvan - I like the connections to Elsbeth.</p>
<p>I think BUandBC has it exactly right, I don’t think that Della committed suicide for a second, but I do think she both clung to life and took wild risks, so that her early demise was somewhat inevitable.</p>
<p>I’m willing to go with “ironic accident” and yet…Della is different in the final scenes of the book. Physically, she never took care of herself, but shortly before her death the transformation brought on by self-neglect is extreme: “She was already thin, but she lost more weight; she looked at herself in the mirror and hardly recognized her face. She developed eczema on her scalp so badly that the prison barber had to cut her hair off for it to be properly medicated. She looked more like a boy than ever, but she didn’t care” (p. 401).</p>
<p>Psychologically, she has lost the drive that kept her going—as if Michaelson’s death has diminished her will to live. She tells Angelene, “Thought I’d feel glad about it. Or sad, maybe. She shrugged again. Maybe that sounds strange. I don’t know. Thought I’d feel something. She paused. But I don’t” (p. 400).</p>
<p>Emotionally, she has become “softer.” She cries when she sees Angelene; seeks forgiveness in a way, content that “the girl did not blame her for doing what she had done”; and (for the first time, I think) really thinks about Angelene’s character and her life. She tells her that she is wonderful, “better than all of us put together” and asks her “You have a good life, don’t you?” She wants to embrace Angelene; she thanks her for coming. This is not the Della of the previous 400 pages. She is no longer, as Clee put it, “too fierce to die.” So maybe she didn’t try to kill herself…but I think she didn’t try not to either. She was ready to go.</p>