The T. Boone Pickens Plan

<p>Of course I do, Catahoula. I know the outline of the theory. I know that the better a person does understand the theory the more likely it is that he or she will agree that it is basically correct - a trend which approaches 100% among those best qualified to analyze the theory. I have noted that the predicted increase in temperature appears to be taking place. I understand that you can never prove that a scientific theory is correct; merely accumulate enough failed attempts to disprove it to allow you to become comfortable with it. </p>

<p>I am also aware that if anyone had a viable theory that would explain the data and lead to an alternative outcome from continuing without taking any steps to address the problem that person would have no trouble finding funding to pursue experimental support for such a counter-theory, and have every opportunity to have that theory and the evidence which supports it widely reported. In my opinion, the denier’s (necessary) claim that the truth is being suppressed by the scientific community is tin-foil hat level thinking. </p>

<p>But I lack the scientific training and technical expertise to form what I would consider to be a meaningful personal opinion. I’ve read enough of the technical stuff to understand that it’s beyond my ability to personally verify. (Do you believe that you understand the theory “well enough” to say otherwise?) </p>

<p>I think that anyone who believes that he can form a reliable opinion that’s adverse to the scientific consensus on the subject based on pop-science level theories and snappy infobits is a fool. (As you might guess, I think there are lots of fools out there.) I think that there’s very little likelihood that the basic premise of climate change due to anthropogenic global warming is wrong - that would require hundreds of scientists to all be fools, charlatans, and/or conspirators. I don’t think that’s true. I’m sure some are one or more of those things. But not very many. Denier theory requires that they all be.</p>

<p>I’m sure there are aspects of the analysis that need to be tweaked. I get that there are many, many variables, and many of those variables affect other variables. But I think that the likelihood that it’s basically dead wrong, that if we continue to pump massive quantities of carbon products into the atmosphere nothing bad will happen - while it would be nice - is vanishingly low.</p>

<p>well it’s not often that i read a thread that is way over my head but this one takes that honour. I do have an honest question that perhaps someone on the thread could answer in plain lingo… why are there wind turbines all over parts of europe and none here in the US? Is it not viable or does our govt not give the right tax incentives? </p>

<p>From a purely aesthetics point of view, I thought the wind turbines I saw in Germany a few weeks ago were kind of nice looking. They were serene, kind of like giant pieces of art. They were a relaxing to watch (although not when flying down the autobahn)</p>

<p>Thanks in advance if you can help clear this mystery up for me.</p>

<p>There are some in California, Wyoming, Colorado and Florida (I think). There are US wind companies - google.</p>

<p>Texas, too.</p>

<p>Well, the reigning political guru in this arena Al Gore told us that the clear scientific consensus was that unless the tide of global warming was turned by 2010, we would have reached the point of no return.</p>

<p>So I don’t worry about it anymore, and look forward to beachfront property and palm trees in my backyard. Meanwhile, I’m busy trying to triple the global energy footprint of my friends in India and Africa. </p>

<p>Probably the best thing we can do (if we wanted to do anything) is promote increased unemployment in the U.S. and Europe which, in turn, would result in less consumer consumption. And we are doing really well!</p>

<p>Leaving the filler aside,</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The one the chimps could have straight-lined or is there a special one, one from the team, you feel good about?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>What you are probably trying to say is that followers of a theory that isn’t falsifiable are more properly labeled cultists, not scientists.</p>

<p>And yes, I’ll freely admit I’m not qualified to discuss the statistical hoodoo that’s a recurring complaint about things such as Mann’s hockey stick, feedback, and forcings, but that really isn’t necessary, is it? There’s been enough pushback (without Exxon funding) from people who are, to leave a really bad taste in the mouth of anyone with some smattering of a science background. Not that it’s really needed - this issue most likely died with ClimateGate, but it’s still fun to argue with you, kluge. </p>

<p>Used to be fun times, what with all the illegal alien threads and such. Sigh.</p>

<p>So, Catahoula, you have no more than a smattering of science background but based on stuff some other people have asserted about what you choose to describe as “statistical hoodoo” - which you actually aren’t personally qualified to discuss - you’re comfortable concluding that the overwhelming majority of the scientists who have worked on climate study for years are “cultists” who are pushing a fraudulent scientific theory in order to cash in on the “gravy train” of academic salaries.</p>

<p>That’s what I customarily refer to as “tin-foil hat thinking.” :)</p>

<p>My reading of the scientists is that there is clear consensus that there is global warming, clear consensus that human activity played a significant role in it, and no consensus that there is ANYTHING we can do at this juncture (short of worldwide great depression over a very extended length of time) that will significantly impact it at any time in the foreseeable future.</p>

<p>Cap and trade or a carbon tax is something we could do that would affect climate change…</p>

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</p>

<p>I posted a few links upthread. One of them was to AWEA: [AMERICAN</a> WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION - <a href=“http://www.awea.org%5B/url%5D”>www.awea.org](<a href=“http://www.awea.org/]AMERICAN”>http://www.awea.org/)</a> and it is a nice place to start.</p>

<p>For a short “academic review” this is a quick read:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/academic/fellowships/prizes/gisprize/ay07-08/Jeremy_Tchou.pdf[/url]”>http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/academic/fellowships/prizes/gisprize/ay07-08/Jeremy_Tchou.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As surprising at it might appear, a short decades ago the United States was the pioneer of the wind industry and had a few go-go years. The end of front-loading 30 year-long contracts brought an abrupt end to many developments in California. The original projects were built about one hour east of San Francisco (Livermore area,) in Palm Springs, and in the vicinity of Bakersfield. Names such as Tehachapi, Altamont or San Gorgonio Passes were all the rage. </p>

<p>In addition, the government did more than its share by offering the double-whammy of suspending tax credits AND spending all available resources on National Labs that were spreading the news of the upcoming arrival of the next best US turbine. This message, in reality, sent a message that the US did NOT have viable technology. At the same time, the Danish and German government simply provided incentives to their manufacturers who produced technologically simpler (and more robust) machines … all the while the resident idiots in California and Boulder were tinkering with technologies for the year 2030. This allowed manufacturers such as Vestas, Bonus, Enercon to beat the remnants of US companies such as US Windpower, Zond, and Enron to a pulp and on their way to the bankruptcy and grave. Later on, a few US manufacturers made a comeback, but it was too little and too late as Europeans had gained strength and scope. Next to the Germans and Danes, you now had mighty strong companies from Holland to Spain, with reaches all the way to India. Today, you have about 100 manufacturers in China alone. </p>

<p>Despite having an enormous potential and being the leader at one point in time, the US wind industry found a way to mess it up. All in all, and in a not too surprising way, the bulk of it can be ascribed to the failed energy policy of the successive US governments. Some sold to the fossil and nuclear lobbyists; the others simply too dumb and lazy to know better. However, what might be more surprising is that the biggest disasters occurred in the 90s under the “watchful” eye of the second buffoon-in-charge, and that is none other than the Ozone Man himself, who had not found that this line of business could line his corrupt and deep pockets … yet. </p>

<p>From Gore to Pickens, the US surely can pick winners with a soul!</p>

<p>'Cap and trade or a carbon tax is something we could do that would affect climate change… "</p>

<p>Highly doubtful. Around 1990 it might have made a significant difference. Not now. (But global depression would…)</p>

<p>It’s only a start, mini - along with stopping the farting cows.</p>

<p>But Al Gore (and the scientists) said we needed to be FINISHED (that is, turnaround made) in 2010. </p>

<p>But if we could slaughter all the cows in India… (though I think American cows fart more…)</p>

<p>Darn those lobbyists!</p>

<p><a href=“though%20I%20think%20American%20cows%20fart%20more…”>quote</a>

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</p>

<p>An udderly silly thing to say! ;)</p>

<p>Stop feeding the American cars corn- it ruins their digestive system and health!! Much of the corn is GMO, so who knows what it is doing to us when we drink their milk and eat their meat…</p>

<p>

Besides not being what I said, it’s wishful thinking on your part, kluge. </p>

<p>You’re also mistaken in thinking that I’m blaming the run-of-the-mill grant consumer for all this. No, no, no… lemmings will always do what they do, no matter how stupid, and blaming them for it is a lot like shooting the puppy for weeing on the rug when all it really needed was a better role model to teach continence.</p>

<p>Speaking of continence and statistical hoodo - wonder what the average orifice tightening has been, not amongst the lemmings but the leaders, to a request by McIntyre for data? This McIntyre…</p>

<p>[Stephen</a> McIntyre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_McIntyre]Stephen”>Steve McIntyre - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Ah, the mysterious Catahoula! He is not qualified to personally analyze climate science. Or maybe he is! He is not qualified to analyze what he calls “statistical hoodoo.” But that doesn’t mean he isn’t qualified to declare that it’s all a hoax! </p>

<p>All we know for sure is that Catahoula knows what’s what, as compared to the lemmings/chimps/puppies who comprise the “run-of-the-mill grant consumer” (i.e.: real scientists) who clearly have no ability to tell the difference between fact and fiction, even if they do have the ability to actually analyze it. Only Catahoula really knows, based on… well, that part’s not exactly clear, is it? A lot of arch superiority, sneers and, well, that’s about it, isn’t it?</p>

<p>With all due respect, Catahoula, my money’s still with the real scientists. I have no doubt they’ll make some errors along the way - and find them in due course - but I don’t share your conviction that they’re a bunch of moronic lemmings led by a handful of deliberately deceitful masterminds - the premise that’s necessary for you to maintain your conviction that they’re all dead wrong.</p>

<p>Catahoula-</p>

<p>Not only are you unlikely to be able to decipher the statistical hoopla, as you call it, you obviously also get your information from right wing blog sites and Fox News, and here is why.</p>

<p>1) You refer to “climategate”, which was the cause celebre among the denier crowd. Basically through whatever means they got a hold of e-mails and memos that seemed to suggest that climatologists who supported global warming were actively colluding to cook the books and so forth, it was all the rage.</p>

<p>The only problem is, government agencies in both the US and Great Britain (and this was with governments not exactly pro global warming, in the US this happened under GWB) examined this, as did science organizations and the like, and they all came to the conclusion that no such conspiracy had taken place. What they did find was some researchers venting and saying things like “gee, maybe it would be easier to falsify data rather then do the hard work of convincing people”, while stupid it was not some sort of ‘smoking gun’.</p>

<p>2)The famous “hockey Stick” graph has been gone over more times then a dogs bowl you put prime rib in. Congress back in the bush days when the GOP controlled both houses, had independant investigators look into the hockey stick graph, and when they reported back to congress (to the displeasure of Inhofe, chief global warming denier and proponent of the good ole boy oil and gas industry, gee I wonder why…) was that the methodology that was used to draw the graph, the statistical methods, were valid. They did have some feedback on some of the data, not that it was wrong, but slight changes based on some statitistical error and such, but the overall conclusion was that the ‘hockey stick’ graph was in fact sound in its basis. In fact, the authors of said graph/study took into the suggestions of the panel and revised their graphs, agreeing to the points they made, but it didn’t change the overall conclusion.</p>

<p>3)Deniers also love to promote the idea that 'scientists don’t agree", or sneer at “models”, but what they leave out is that what scientists are disagreeing about most of the time is how to read the models, which is not surprising, because models don’t prove anything, they are what they are, conceptual models that may or may not be close to what really happens. </p>

<p>It is funny, because many of the same denier types who will tell you "models are bogus’ use models to prove something they believe in. The most classic case of that is the so called “laffer curve”, which is based on an economic model that conservatives have been basing their ideology on for years, that tax cuts stimulate the economy in such a way that they end up ‘paying for themselves’ (in other words, cut 100 billion in taxes, and the economy will increase in such a way that they government will see tax revenue return to or exceed that 100 billion, based on stimulated economic activity). Economic Models are no more or less valid then scientific ones, they are based on models that use all kinds of assumptions that may or may not be true…</p>

<p>And where scientists do disagree is on things like how fast the changes will happen, what kind of impact they have and more importantly, can we in fact do anything about it? Scientific consensus isn’t like fundamentalist christianity, that has boiled down belief to literal reading of words on a page, it means that the scientists agree to something in broad principle but don’t necessarily agree on the details.</p>

<p>4)And most of the statistical hoopla and so forth has come from the deniers. For example, I routinely hear how this warming we are seeing is caused by solar radiation (a principle that no scientist would argue, increased radiation does increase planetary warming). And some data put forward by skeptics reputedly showed measurements of solar radiation that ‘proved’ it was responsible. </p>

<p>Only problem is when put through the wringer when making conclusions, it turns out the data was improperly smoothed, used readings from a narrow source of recording stations, and didn’t factor in a number of other reasons why the readings would be off. And more importantly, when the data they presented was compared against readings from observatories in orbit and from all over the earth, the numbers didn’t tally…</p>

<p>A couple of years ago deniers floated this data that supposedly showed the earth was ‘cooling down’, they showed readings from the atmosphere from drones and balloons that showed cooler then normal temperatures…until someone looked into it, turns out that the information had been improperly gathered, the balloons and drones were at a higher altitude in the atmosphere then the report claimed (measuring temperatures at 20,000 feet versus 10,000 feet are always going to be colder). They were comparing data from higher altitudes with norms measured in earlier years at lower altitudes, and saying ‘gee, it is colder’ (and when they took into account the altitude, the figures showed warmer temps, as predicted)</p>

<p>5)Likewise, one of the most telling data points for me about global warming is that deep water ocean temps are rising, and rapidly. Shallow water measurements fluctuate, but deep water temps take major changes in atmospheric temperature to percolate down and affect them, yet measurments are showing this. Once again, deniers came up with data that showed deep water temps were dropping, ‘disproving’ warming…and once again, when the data was checked and the methodology verified, guess what? “Oops, the thing holding the sensors was sitting way deeper then the initial reports claimed”…want to guess if that was an accident or not?</p>

<p>What I find hysterical is when I hear people like Perry, Bachman and Palin claiming global warming is a hoax, that the ‘science’ is cooked…you are talking about Perry, who got D’s and F’s in any science course he took, Bachman who is likewise challenged, and Palin, who had to go to 5 different colleges to find one where she could actually get a degree in some jerkwater field of study and not a science class to her name…and they are fit to judge? More importantly, all three think evolution is fake and that the earth is 6000 years old, and we let that type judge science? It is no surprise that a significant percentage of those who believe warming is a hoax are also fundamentalist Christians, it takes the same kind of attitude towards science to dismiss science and scientific method in the face of the kind of evidence that is out there.</p>

<p>Catahoula-</p>

<p>Not only are you unlikely to be able to decipher the statistical hoopla, as you call it, you obviously also get your information from right wing blog sites and Fox News, and here is why.</p>

<p>1) You refer to “climategate”, which was the cause celebre among the denier crowd. Basically through whatever means they got a hold of e-mails and memos that seemed to suggest that climatologists who supported global warming were actively colluding to cook the books and so forth, it was all the rage.</p>

<p>The only problem is, government agencies in both the US and Great Britain (and this was with governments not exactly pro global warming, in the US this happened under GWB) examined this, as did science organizations and the like, and they all came to the conclusion that no such conspiracy had taken place. What they did find was some researchers venting and saying things like “gee, maybe it would be easier to falsify data rather then do the hard work of convincing people”, while stupid it was not some sort of ‘smoking gun’.</p>

<p>2)The famous “hockey Stick” graph has been gone over more times then a dogs bowl you put prime rib in. Congress back in the bush days when the GOP controlled both houses, had independant investigators look into the hockey stick graph, and when they reported back to congress (to the displeasure of Inhofe, chief global warming denier and proponent of the good ole boy oil and gas industry, gee I wonder why…) was that the methodology that was used to draw the graph, the statistical methods, were valid. They did have some feedback on some of the data, not that it was wrong, but slight changes based on some statitistical error and such, but the overall conclusion was that the ‘hockey stick’ graph was in fact sound in its basis. In fact, the authors of said graph/study took into the suggestions of the panel and revised their graphs, agreeing to the points they made, but it didn’t change the overall conclusion.</p>

<p>3)Deniers also love to promote the idea that 'scientists don’t agree", or sneer at “models”, but what they leave out is that what scientists are disagreeing about most of the time is how to read the models, which is not surprising, because models don’t prove anything, they are what they are, conceptual models that may or may not be close to what really happens. </p>

<p>It is funny, because many of the same denier types who will tell you "models are bogus’ use models to prove something they believe in. The most classic case of that is the so called “laffer curve”, which is based on an economic model that conservatives have been basing their ideology on for years, that tax cuts stimulate the economy in such a way that they end up ‘paying for themselves’ (in other words, cut 100 billion in taxes, and the economy will increase in such a way that they government will see tax revenue return to or exceed that 100 billion, based on stimulated economic activity). Economic Models are no more or less valid then scientific ones, they are based on models that use all kinds of assumptions that may or may not be true…</p>

<p>And where scientists do disagree is on things like how fast the changes will happen, what kind of impact they have and more importantly, can we in fact do anything about it? Scientific consensus isn’t like fundamentalist christianity, that has boiled down belief to literal reading of words on a page, it means that the scientists agree to something in broad principle but don’t necessarily agree on the details.</p>

<p>4)And most of the statistical hoopla and so forth has come from the deniers. For example, I routinely hear how this warming we are seeing is caused by solar radiation (a principle that no scientist would argue, increased radiation does increase planetary warming). And some data put forward by skeptics reputedly showed measurements of solar radiation that ‘proved’ it was responsible. </p>

<p>Only problem is when put through the wringer when making conclusions, it turns out the data was improperly smoothed, used readings from a narrow source of recording stations, and didn’t factor in a number of other reasons why the readings would be off. And more importantly, when the data they presented was compared against readings from observatories in orbit and from all over the earth, the numbers didn’t tally…</p>

<p>A couple of years ago deniers floated this data that supposedly showed the earth was ‘cooling down’, they showed readings from the atmosphere from drones and balloons that showed cooler then normal temperatures…until someone looked into it, turns out that the information had been improperly gathered, the balloons and drones were at a higher altitude in the atmosphere then the report claimed (measuring temperatures at 20,000 feet versus 10,000 feet are always going to be colder). They were comparing data from higher altitudes with norms measured in earlier years at lower altitudes, and saying ‘gee, it is colder’ (and when they took into account the altitude, the figures showed warmer temps, as predicted)</p>

<p>5)Likewise, one of the most telling data points for me about global warming is that deep water ocean temps are rising, and rapidly. Shallow water measurements fluctuate, but deep water temps take major changes in atmospheric temperature to percolate down and affect them, yet measurments are showing this. Once again, deniers came up with data that showed deep water temps were dropping, ‘disproving’ warming…and once again, when the data was checked and the methodology verified, guess what? “Oops, the thing holding the sensors was sitting way deeper then the initial reports claimed”…want to guess if that was an accident or not?</p>

<p>What I find hysterical is when I hear people like Perry, Bachman and Palin claiming global warming is a hoax, that the ‘science’ is cooked…you are talking about Perry, who got D’s and F’s in any science course he took, Bachman who is likewise challenged, and Palin, who had to go to 5 different colleges to find one where she could actually get a degree in some jerkwater field of study and not a science class to her name…and they are fit to judge? More importantly, all three think evolution is fake and that the earth is 6000 years old, and we let that type judge science? It is no surprise that a significant percentage of those who believe warming is a hoax are also fundamentalist Christians, it takes the same kind of attitude towards science to dismiss science and scientific method in the face of the kind of evidence that is out there.</p>