The Texas Solution to School Shooters

Parent Cafe
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<p>But the handguns were not what he used to mow down 20 first graders. A teacher might have had a chance to disarm him if he had not had the Bushmaster that he did use. And… what about our churches, malls, meeting places with politicians, movie theaters, etc. Will we all be willing to pay tax dollars or higher prices to provide armed guards there that could get to any place in the building in seconds? I doubt that those who are making the most noise about armed guards are willing to pay higher taxes (just a hunch that there is a LOT of overlap with those who don’t want to pay ANY taxes right now).</p>

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<p>how so? I think you just did not bother to read my whole post (or all of the ones I have posted), and took the part from it you wanted to. </p>

<p>Nothing in my posts indicate a change in my position.</p>

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<p>From the article about the Texas proposal:</p>

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<p>“React technically and emotionally” My ex-BIL is a Vietnam vet multi-tour Marine who came back and served on a police force until he retired a couple of years ago. My next door neighbor was an Army Ranger in Vietnam who led South Vietnamese teams but did a lot of the distance wet work. His son was a Special Forces sniper and then became a policeman (his current employment). All these guys knew how to kill efficienctly.</p>

<p>If the discussion is my child’s safety in a mass shooting situation, I would want someone who had killing experience in live fire circumstances.</p>

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<p>Let me practical again. Let’s say carrying guns are legal. How do you know which guys carrying guns are planning to shoot you, versus which ones are planning to defend you?</p>

<p>The armed civilian at the site of the shooting of Gabby Giffords has admitted that he was one second away from shooting the person standing over Giffords - the one who was trying to save her life and shield her from the actual shooter.</p>

<p>If you’re a police office running onto the scene of a shooting, and you see 3 or 4 people all with firearms, who do you point your gun at? </p>

<p>I think the problem with “training” of civilians is that the training I’ve been hearing about is geared toward learning to use the gun rather than learning when to use the gun.</p>

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<p>Agree, but also think that in a school setting, they will need other skills too. Professional/experienced sharp shooters will not be enough.</p>

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<p>:That is very, very true. I recall that there were police present at our public high school Friday night football games back in the mid-1960s."</p>

<p>They were not there to prevent mass shootings and neither are the guards in NYPD schools. They are there to “keep the peace.” That is why you sometimes see officers in high schools but not in elementary schools.</p>

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<p>Agree, Hayden.</p>

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<p>I don’t have a problem with a police presence in schools. My kids’ high school has one. I do have a problem with teachers being armed.</p>

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<p>I think the most ideal solution would be to not focus on the implement, i.e. gun violence, as opposed to violence in general, but to focus on the root issue which is the mental instability of the people performing acts of violence and determining how to intervene to prevent the attempt at violence in the first place. This, of course, isn’t easily done.</p>

<p>Having some trained, armed individuals at a school can certainly end up saving lives, as zoosermom already pointed out, but there are some practical issues in trying to have teachers take up this role - </p>

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<li><p>Only a subset of the teachers would be able to do this. A number of them wouldn’t be able to emotionally handle picking up a weapon and shooting someone - especially a kid. Some teachers would refuse to pick up a weapon even for training or be anywhere around them. This means it’d be spotty weather the teacher in a particular classroom would have a weapon or not although some could argue that a quarter or a third of the classrooms with armed teachers is better than none.</p></li>
<li><p>The teacher would need to store the weapon in a manner where the students couldn’t get a hold of it yet it was accessible to the teacher. This would mean it’d need to be either strapped on to the teacher at all times, which would be unlikely to be desired or permitted and would be disconcerting to most people, or they’d need to keep it locked in a drawer, probably with an additional trigger guard on it. All of this means it won’t be too readily accessible if it was needed. This is a different scenario than an armed guard who would typically have the firearm on his/her person and readily accessible.</p></li>
<li><p>The training would need to be more than just heading to a range and learning how to fire a weapon. It’d need to include a higher level of training similar to what police have to go through because in effect, that’s the role the teachers would be taking on. Not all security guards have this level of training either but they should IMO.</p></li>
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<p>Maybe some of the funding for additional armed guards and firearms training could be put into additional training of teachers in how to spot potential problem students and into additional personnel available to the school/teachers in referring these potential problem students so some intervention might be possible. In addition to potentially preventing some of these violent acts maybe enough help could be provided to the student such that they can resolve their emotional issues and lead a better life. This wouldn’t stop 100% of the incidents but neither will any other proposal.</p>

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That’s already a possibility since the police could (and sometimes do) end up shooting someone carrying a weapon where they shouldn’t who ignore orders to put the weapon down whether it’s loaded or not. That’s a risk people take when they behave that way. The training needs to include the circumstances under which it’s acceptable to fire the weapon such that a teacher doesn’t end up shooting someone who happens to be carrying a stick or a shovel or something. This would need to be a critical step of any training.</p>

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<p>Really the only solution is to enact sensible controls on what kinds of weapons civilians are allowed to own. It shouldn’t be easier to buy assault weapons and high-capacity magazines than it is to buy sudafed. Sales of large quantities of fertilizer are restricted because people might use them for nefarious purposes. Why can’t we treat gun sales the same way?</p>

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<p>David Dewhurst is looking for a solution without a problem. </p>

<p>There are enough teachers in Texas who carry. They don’t need to be trained to do it.</p>

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<p>@07DAD: How about we work to reduce the “live fire” situations your child is exposed to? And who’s to say your child woudn’t be one of the twenty or so killed before the armed guard stops the shooter(s) (read: Columbine)? You’re gambling with your kid’s life. Those arguing for increasing armed guard presence are honestly fighting a losing battle; they must defend Columbine et. al. as results of their plan. Sure, 20 people dead is better than 30, but if all armed guards will do is prevent a few extra deaths, then we should be looking somewhere else. Keeping guns (especially military-grade ones) out of most civilians’ hands is a start.</p>

<p>Now, if your argument is to increase regulation AND institute armed guards in every school, then I’d be much more willing to see it your way.</p>

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<p>That is a good point, PG…does Texas have gun free zones at the schools that prevent teachers from carrying weapons on to school property? (I would hope)</p>

<p>If so, might that be be what they are looking to change?</p>

<p>Again, I don’t agree with it, just playing out the premise.</p>

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<p>The presence of police at a school with high crime, i.e, gangs is a different problem than the school that it targeted by a mass shooter. The thing is the gang members do not want to get caught by police. Therefore, the police are a good deterrent. The mass shooter has a different agenda altogether. Note how many of them commit suicide after the shooting. I don’t remember the last time I heard of a mass shooting at a NYC school. Maybe I am having a senior moment. Yet, there are shootings in NYC everyday. Just plain crime.</p>

<p>That said, My D’s HS, in suburbia has a police car and a policeman at the school. However, the school is actually a very large campus with several entrances. I don’t know how one or two armed guards could possibly fully stop someone who has studied the layout in planning something like this before the shooter has a chance to shoot some people. There have already been two lockdowns in the past two years. Thankfully, all false alarms.</p>

<p>I would not trust your average teacher with a gun. I think we go back to whether people are mentally/emotionally qualified to carry a weapon, let alone around children and then how well trained could you be. Would the average untrained citizen with no training in gun battle be able to make that split second decision to shoot or be shot? Or to identify who is the good guy or if it is another citizen with a gun. etc. Too many moving parts here to make a fatal mistake.</p>

<p>My other D’s college has a precint right across the campus and there have been people shot on and around campus. It is supposedly a safe campus. Those blue lights are useless if you can’t get to them.</p>

<p>I am not against having a police car at the school as a deterrent or having an armed guard on site. I just am afraid at the thought of untrained/unexperienced civilians walking around with weapons like it is the Wild Wild West…</p>

<p>I think the idea above of having a resource guard is pretty good. Also Guidance counselors could get out of their offices and walk around the school and sit in the lunch room to see what the kids are up to and if there is any trouble brewing.</p>

<p>The idea presented by one mom’s of the Newton shootings of building a community center (Chase’s place) is a pretty good one. We need more places where kids can go and socialize as a community.</p>

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<p>zoosermom, my point is that if all teachers are armed, we would have hundreds of thousands of guns in classrooms with children (and they would be useless if they were locked in a safe–they would have to be accessible and loaded). We have all heard of sad cases when kids got their hands on their parents’ guns and killed their friends or siblings. The odds of that happening are much higher than the odds of a minimally trained teacher happening to take out a mass shooter. Trained resource officers in schools (as described by vlines) would be a different matter.</p>

<p>Crossposted with GladGradDad (and others).</p>

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<p>I agree with PNWedwonk. My kids went to high school with armed police officers. And the city police were very present during football games. But that is completely different from teachers having guns in classrooms. Everyone knows a gun is useless if it isn’t loaded and accessible. And everyone also knows that loaded guns and kids don’t mix. There is nowhere in a classroom to safely keep a gun. Every last cabinet is fully used for school supplies, etc. A desk drawer gets opened often and teachers put their keys down. I remember when a teacher at my kids’ elementary school had his wallet stolen out of a hiding place. A loaded gun in a classroom is a big problem. What happens when the gun gets stolen? Or when a child sees a gun and doesn’t realize it’s loaded. The whole thing is mind-boggling on every level.</p>

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<p>Out HS has an armed Resource Officer who is a member of the police department. I am comfortable with that. As vlines said, they do much more than guard or keep the peace, they are a comunity touchpoint and try to prevent issues rather than just respond to them. I am not comfortable with having individual teachers armed in the classroom. I do not want my kids to be a captive audience where a teacher can choose to carry but I cannot choose to remove my student from that class. I do not trust every teacher to have that kind of judgement not only to effectively use a firearm in an emergency, but also to discern when it might be appropriate, and to exercise proper safety steps every day of every school year. Already in our area since Sandy Hook we have had “responsible gun owners” drop guns in public places - one found by a teen and one discharged in the Cost Plus. These were both middle aged men who I presume had handled and carried fire arms for many years and were thinking that they might be the next hero in the event of a shooting of some kind. They ended up being one lucky break away from tragedy.</p>

<p>I don’t want to worry every day that the 7 teachers that my son comes into contact with each day (not to mention all the others at his school) may have firearms and may have stored them in a desk or tucked them in a pocket or left them in a car. There are too many ways that can go wrong. The risk that one introduces is greater than the dange you are trying to prevent.</p>

<p>In the school shooting that come to mind recently, the shooters were know to be unstable, there were signs, some had posted disturbing messages or told people that they had plans. Addressing the front end of prevention seems to me to be a much sounder course of action.</p>

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<p>studiousmazimus- I think that you have hit on the main problem with this whole debate. Not just here on CC, but nationally. </p>

<p>This is a multifaceted problem that needs a multifaceted solutions. And none of the solutions, or even all of the solutions together will fix this problem completely. But maybe by putting some sensible plans/laws/regulations in place will help decrease some of the deaths. </p>

<p>Too many of these conversations get stuck on one thing. Gun control is the answer. Or mental health services is the answer. Or armed guards in schools is the answer. </p>

<p>None of those things are THE answer. </p>

<p>Seatbelts being required in cars have saved millions of lives. But that was not enough, so they added airbags. And airbags have saved millions more. And guess what, both seatbelts and airbags are regulated and required in cars. Car seats for children are another law that has also saved many lives. Teens have to go through drivers education, and are restricted on the times they can drive and the practice they need before they get the right to drive a car. They even have to pass some medical exams to drive a car. </p>

<p>Will those laws/regulations prevent all future deaths as a result of being a passenger or driver in a car? Absolutely not. Do people choose not to wear their seat belts, or not put their kids in the proper car seat, not to even get a legal drivers license? Absolutely, and yes, they are breaking the law. </p>

<p>But those laws, individually, and cumulatively, HAVE saved many, many lives. </p>

<p>I believe the same thing can happen with gun control laws. </p>

<p>Like cars, you can still have guns. But with safety features, with regulatory laws, and with limitations on how they are used. And those laws and regulations can save lives.</p>

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<p>[Texas</a> Gun Laws - Our Texas Gun Laws made Simple!](<a href=“http://www.texasgunlaws.org/]Texas”>http://www.texasgunlaws.org/)</p>

<p>Concealed license law allows one to carry a gun anywhere including schools. The places where one may not be able to keep them is usually courthouses where they have metal detectors.</p>

<p>So just like voluntary fire drill assistants, the schools will designate gun enthusiasts to be designated protectors based on what I am hearing on the news. The proposal is expected to pass.</p>

<p>I have been through a couple of elementary schools, two middle schools and one high school so far with my kids. The school district has a police force but most of the time I did not see anyone around near the elementary schools, one or two around during school start and end times at middle schools and several around the high school on and off. I think the force in high school exists mainly to take care of day to day unruly behavior.</p>

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<p>We have a resource officer in our high school. He us a county police officer, in uniform, who is assigned to our high school. There are also police officers in uniform at varsity athletic events.<br>
Love having the police presence for many reasons. Stopping a mass shooting before children are killed is not one of my expectations. Calling for backup, yes. Possibly intervening in time to make some difference, yes. But, our perimeters are not secure and never will be, thus, the idea of a truly secure school is laughable.</p>

<p>Right now our high school is in the midst of a multiyear major renovation. Half the school is closed off, half the classes are being held in portables sitting on what used to be athletic fields. We have construction portables and equipment and materials sitting on half of our campus. We have construction workers all over the closed part of the building. The back doors are opened and unlocked because they have to be to allow students to pass in and out of the main building as they move from class to class.</p>

<p>I do not want armed teachers or armed administrators. Have you seen the size of some teens? Have you seen a fistfight in a cafeteria? I live in the safest of burbs, with high expectations and some of the highest achieving students in the country, but there are still occasional fights.The last thing I want in my kid’s school is one of our teachers or administrators trying to break up a fight while carrying a weapon. In the heat of the moment, a stupid fist fight could result in a death of a student or a teacher.</p>