<p>Dare I say that we’d actually like a demanding environment, even with grade deflation. We’ve been in one for 12 years of schooling, with class averages tending toward the 60s! 
We’d take that sort of an intense academic environment in such a hypothetical question any day!</p>
<p>ebad</p>
<p>unfortunately they’re not. Med schools generally cut off people who have less than a 3.4 gpa without even looking at their applications (unless they have a VERY strong hook). now, getting a 3.4 somewhere like penn state, and getting a 3.4 at caltech requires a significant difference in effort. </p>
<p>K_twin, and his twin :-p</p>
<p>Yeah i knew that was coming but then thats what probably got you guys into such brilliant colleges to begin with :-)</p>
<p>“We’ve been in one for 12 years of schooling, with class averages tending toward the 60s!”</p>
<p>Are you 16 year olds well traveled? Lived in US, visited US ?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I know where you’re coming from; I had an extremely similar choice to make. Brown (severe grade-inflation) vs. UChicago (severe grade-deflation). I have decided to go with Chicago simply because I am of the opinion that the academic atmosphere and the life of mind at Chicago are incomparable to the atmosphere at any other college.</p>
<p>Food for thought - If you and me, as high school students who have not yet set foot in college, know that some schools suffer from severe grade inflation/deflation, don’t you think that people who have been working for several years with graduate school admissions know this better than we do?</p>
<p>i think browns a little too notorious for grade inflation, probably because thats where its most prominent. Thats another reason they dont (supposedly) send as many graduates to professional school as they ought to. Professional schools tend to ignore the grade inflation at duke, ivies etc. Again this is all based on what i’ve heard other people say.</p>
<p>I think Brown may send fewer kids to professional schools because it attracts fewer kids who want to go to professional schools. It is probably the least “pre-professional” of the Ivies. (And Brown most certainly is an Ivy.)</p>
<p>Duke is surely a great university, but the negative things I hear about it (fraternities, sportscentrism) are so consistent from disparate sources that I have to think there’s some fire with the smoke. Plus, Charlotte Simmons made it sound horrible. Obviously, that was much exaggerated for comic effect, but just as obviously it was Duke.</p>
<p>I can’t disagree that Duke is more prestigious than Rice. However, I’ve never been in Texas except to change planes in Houston or DFW, and I know that Rice is a great school that kids love.</p>
<p>Brown (severe grade-inflation) vs. UChicago (severe grade-deflation)."</p>
<p>False. Chicago is among the three prestige schools with the highest rate of increase in grade inflation over the past 15 years.</p>
<p>Brown’s high GPA is a simple function of the fact that no one ever has to take a course they are not interested in, coupled with lots of pass/fail opportunities so that students can experiment widely.</p>
<p>k_twin and Shrivats in regards to Berkeley, I have lived in that area for about 5 years and I visited the campus 2 weeks ago. Maybe a stupid criteria, but PEOPLE DO NOT SMILE. Juxtapose the students with Stanford and it is pretty clear how unhappy they really are. I’ve turned down Berk because I know I too would be unhappy at a school where you are just a number. Seriously, it is like ridding in a public bus versus a limo at Stanford (or in your case- Duke). The most unclean people seem to wonder around campus, and that is because downtown Oakland (without a doubt a slum) is close by and Berkeley is just run down and weird/eclecctic. Also, 1 race dominates campus so no diversity. The one thing Berkeley has is the Sun… but SO DOES DUKE. The evidence people are giving you to turn down Duke is either one person they know turned down Duke for College X or they have “heard” it has frats/soroties. It would be a terrible mistake for you to make a decision on this misguided hearsay. The majority of students ARE NOT in frats/sorities and these frats/sorities are not separate houses but rather sections of the dorms. This is to build community. As for basketball- yes, Duke has a good basketball team. The benefits- students are excited about their school (bad thing?) you have something to do on Friday nights (it’s not like they have a home game every night) the school rakes in boatloads of money ( Duke basketball allows for Duke to constantly improve their facilities, etc…Duke is an extremely rich school…that is why their students are treated to first-class everything) and also Duke basketball makes it so everybody knows Duke. 5 year old kids and 80 year old grandmothers in America could tell you about Duke, but unlikely any of the others. Posters might say…who cares if they know about Duke? Well… there are many advantages to going to a well known school, because in America, you will need to interact with people who are not just employers or life-long academics. << and even these people could not place any of the other schools above Duke…</p>
<p>Shrivats and k_twin…I can only imagine if I had to make a deicision about a few schools in Dubai without seeing them. Please post any remaining concerns you have about Duke and I’ll be happy to answer.</p>
<p>
I don’t think this is “proof” of much, because you don’t know how many students from that undergrad college applied but did not get accepted to their top professional school choices. Many I think at Rice would choose to apply to UT-Austin law school, but not Harvard Law, for cost and lifestyle issues. Many would choose to apply to Baylor College of Medicine over Harvard Med for the huge cost difference. Many excellent colleges do not feed large numbers of students into these “top” prof choices due to student’s goals and finances - not the quality of their undergraduate preparation.</p>
<p>Also, FYI – the Wall Street Journal rankings are from 2003.</p>
<p>And oracle – the campus vibe at Duke is not just hearsay; the sports-centric/Greek slant to the school makes it a great fit for SOME students; our point is that just because it has name recognition doesn’t make it a good fit for ALL students.</p>
<p>anxiousmom- ok you are right<br>
Shrivats and twin… if you want to go to Baylor then pick Rice
if you want to go to Harvard then pick Duke </p>
<p>blackeyedsusan- 2003 data is acceptable. Duke has been in the #3-#8 range for a decade…and you are making it sound like Duke=greek party school so it’s not for everybody. The basis of your argument is flawed because Duke is not a greek party school. Stop this stereotyping because it is blatantly false</p>
<p>
You know, this really is not the case. Maybe some could tell you that Duke has sports teams, but they can’t tell you anything else, and probably couldn’t tell you where in the country it’s located. I’ve lived in the northeastern US and on the west coast and yeah, I’ve heard of Duke, but it really doesn’t hit my radar very much. Perhaps among families who follow college sports, it’s a commonly known school, but in the professional and technical circles I’ve traveled in, Rice has at least as good a reputation if not better.</p>
<p>I’m sure Duke is a fine school, as are all your choices. I just don’t want you to think it’s a common household word in the US, if that’s what you’re looking for, and wanted to be sure you didn’t just take oracle1’s word for it.</p>
<p>As a parent and 20+ year resident of Berkeley, I hope that I can add something to the debate and counter some of oracle1’s comments above.</p>
<p>First off, the city of Berkeley is a great place to go to school.
There is something for everyone re: food, movies, arts, clubs and diversity. The housing situation has greatly improved for students over the past five years, but do check on the current on-campus housing guarantees after your first year and also please note that off-campus housing can be quite expensive.
It is a safe, accepting, fascinating place to be. Yes, the raggedy panhandlers are visible along Telegraph Ave. (the major student street), but they tend to be non-aggressive and for better or for worse, an integral part of the cityscape.</p>
<p>Contrary to some fiercely held stereotypes, CAL is not a hippy-school, or a dogmatically left wing place, or a particularly dangerous place, or wildly cut throat academically. Like most any school, it is what you make it.</p>
<p>Some positives: Interesting and engaged student population. Most kids really want to be here. This was not their second choice. The students study hard and still seem to have fun. Student outcomes, be they grad or job-oriented, tend to be very good. Warranted or not, Berkeley grads have international cache’. Did I forget to mention world-class professors and accessible research possibilities?
Some negatives: Without honors or Regents consideration (not your issue), requisite classes can be difficult to schedule. The seminar classes in one’s first two years might be quite large. It can also be challenging to transfer in and out of ‘impacted’ majors.</p>
<p>I think that the most important thing to consider with all of your wonderful choices is learning style.
Do you prefer large, more anonymous seminar classes broken down into sections let by T.A.'s? Or do you prefer smaller, discussion-based classes where the professor knows and understands your contributions. Berkeley does have both, but do remember that unlike Rice or JHU (yes oracle1), even Duke, it IS a larger, public school.
There is no right or wrong, only what suits you best. We all learn differently. </p>
<p>At Berkeley, during your first two years you will tend to be in the larger seminar classes while fulfilling your GE requirements. If that’s not your preference, then probably one of the other schools would be a better choice. After that, depending on your major, the classes will be considerably smaller.</p>
<p>Good luck with your decisions.
It seems like you can’t make a wrong choice.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: neither of my two kid choose UCBerkeley and went instead to smaller, Eastern LAC’s for undergrad. One has returned and is now finishing up a doctorate at CAL.</p>
<p>oracle: Take your dicsussion and ideas to somewhere where somebody really thinks that rank 3-8 or whatever, really matters. We are trying to give input to two kids looking forthe best fit. It doesn’t seem that they really care about Duke basketball(not everybody does). You obviuosly know little about unversities if you never heard of Rice, and statements about all kids looking unhappy ay Berkeley mean little. If they did, a gazillion kids would not want to apply there every year.</p>
<p>Everybody knows Berkeley is a top enginering school and good in about everything else too. Students I know who have gone, friends who have gone, friends of my kids who have gone all seem to have liked it there. Issues they point out and that have been pointed out on the Berkeley threads are: 1. It is hard to change majors. 2. Classes are large. Friends who even earned Phds. in Engineering speak of the large classes even in the graduate specialties. 3. There is concern by some that undergrads are’t as cared for as they could be. 4. Profs there do say that they do not handhold the kids. You have to go after things you want. They say this better prepares you for the real world and it may. This aspect can be a positive or negative depending on your personality. 5. Housing has been a concern in the past but now it appears they guarantee it on campus for the first two years. 6. OOS students have been burned by major tuition increases a few years ago. California budget crunch. 6. The campus is beautiful and the town has a lot of diverse restaurants etc. 7. If you want to attend sports events they are there. 8. The weather and the views are a plus. 9. It is bigger than the other places the OP are considereing. 10. It is near SF, one of the great american cities.</p>
<p>OP: It is a big natinal university which is different form the other schools on your list.</p>
<p>Really op, don’t listen to oracle; not because Duke isn’t a good school, but this poster has a closed mind and thinks Duke is the best for everyone. It isn’t.</p>
<p>Ouch…attacked on all sides. </p>
<p>mootmom- the fact that Duke is a household name is not the reason he should go there, just another consideration. Keep in mind that the OP has not been to America. He is going to be at a cocktail party, a job interview, a first date, a graduate school etc and going to proudly say “I went to Rice”. And the response he will likely get is “Uh, cool…thats nice.Where is that?” The OP has worked too hard in school to go to a “Oh…it’s in Texas. I like Texas” school. </p>
<p>hop- you probably have a better handle on Berk than I do but I know you would agree it is a love it or hate plate. The OP doesn’t get a second chance after May 1st to change his mind. You are right, it is a lot of people’s first choice and many qualified people apply…and those are the people who care about it being close to home, cheap, prestigous, and having a large number of their own race as opposed to many other parts of California. Since “fit” is so important to everyone on the board, I think Berk is not a one-size-fits all school. Keep in mind OP, the top top students in the greater San Francisco area think of Berk as a backup. </p>
<p>oldolddad- “You obviuosly know little about unversities if you never heard of Rice”. I said I didn’t know about it before the admissions process and even after, I not anymore excited about it (nor are most)</p>
<p>"We are trying to give input to two kids looking forthe best fit. It doesn’t seem that they really care about Duke basketball(not everybody does). "</p>
<p>Again, you are distorting the truth and painting a picture you know the OP will buy into. Shrivats and his twin are academics, but nobody has anything negative to say about Duke academics, so I don’t see why Duke wouldn’t be the perfect fit. </p>
<p>bethievt- I do not have a closed mind. I’m using reasoning and logic to explain my side while everybody wants to get attacking me personally. Where is the love?</p>
<p>oracle1, there is an equal chance that saying “I went to Duke,” will elicit the very same, “Oh yes? Where’s that?” It’s clear that you are a Duke supporter, which is great: I presume you’re considering attending, and if you do I hope it’s a great experience! I think at this point, the OP wants comparisons. I repeat, in the technical and professional (engineering) circles I travel in, Rice has at least as good a reputation as Duke, and probably better. And although I didn’t mention it, Berkeley trumps both in that regard.</p>
<p>(Oh yes, and:
I also live in the “greater SF area” and this may be the case among some students at some schools, but by no means all. I know plenty of “top top students” who are thrilled to be accepted at UCB and are excited about attending. I’m sure the OP is grateful you have provided your opinions, but you do not speak for everyone, and he should know that.)</p>
<p>oracle</p>
<p>Nice that you love Duke. It is not the best school for everybody. You have blinders on, if not a closed mind. I’m not trying to attack you–I’m trying to help the OP and twin to figure out a fit. You would probably say that Duke is the best fit for my son and you would be wrong.</p>
<p>bethievt- if you are not trying to attack me, then why do you continue to do it? </p>
<p>Does anybody have a more solid argument against Duke than it is not right for everybody? Of all the schools the OP is considering, I would say Duke is the most user-friendly and least hit-or-miss. On top of that, it is #2 in Biomed which is what the OP might be considering. Shrivats, what is your current ranking of the schools you are considering? If Duke is not your number 1, I would be more than happy to do research on it in comparison to your current number 1 choice now.</p>
<p>Wow—I hope Shri and K-twin are sleeping through this mess!!–don’t know what time it is over there… ALL of the schools that they are considering are good schools, and there could be SOLID arguments made for each one of them. Go back to the Duke boards, you’ve made your point, Oracle. </p>
<p>I hope you both end up at the same school, even though I agree that you shouldn’t room together, and give yourselves a chance to each stand on your own…however, being so far away from home in a new country, I think that the emotional support of having each other close would be a good thing…as well as logistically much easier for travel coordination for yourselves and your parents. Keep in mind that different schools have different school calendars, different vacation times, etc. so don’t underestimate the “hassle” factor, if nothing else. If it comes down to it, what is the financial difference between all your places? Since all your choices are GREAT, maybe it becomes a cost difference, as well as a climate/weather one (i.e. much different wardrobe required for Chicago vs. Houston, for example, with Cal and Duke being more temperate)…</p>