The women in this novel are fierce, aren’t they? Lily, Loo, Mary Titus, Maureen Talbot. They are very different from one other, but all have steely cores.
Btw, I liked the loom, the jars of herbs and the boiling pots of colorful dye in Mabel Ridge’s house. She’s like a fairy tale witch or something.
Interesting that the first time we meet Lily, she is wearing a black dress, black veil and black gloves. I know it’s after her father’s funeral, but still…what a contrast to the vibrant color that surrounds her mother.
@mary13 what a good point about colorful Mabel “Rigid” Ridge - in contrast to the Gothic, dark Lily.
When Hawley brings Lily to Mabel’s on that last fateful night Mabel accepts her like a tribal Indian Queen
Regarding the women in the novel being fierce, I highlighted the comment Gunderson makes when he gives Lily her last check, saying the women who work at the Sawtooth, are like Amazons, and he compliments her strength.
The epigraph, @mathmom no I have not and will not read Moby Dick, but it’s such a force in literature, and as an editor how important must an epigraph be in a book, especially, a book that took Tinti 9 years to publish.
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This makes me think of weapons, here the spear- in the book it will be guns.
Skillfullness of the spear thrower - the sharpshooters in the book.
The life spot of the whale- dramatic moment of the kill
Sparkling water now red blood——- violence and bloodshed coming in the book.
Stubb rejoices in the kill
All fountains must run wine today- celebration of the success- murderous actions in the book somewhat glorified?
Or …
does the whale represent Lily’s death in the water.
The whale the symbol of the mother, as mentioned above in whale symbology??
The journey was Loo’s quest for her mother, and love.
And Hawleys pain the loss of Lily and his role in her death.
The moment of Lily’s death earth shattering-life altering.
I don’t think less of Hawley for leaving infant Loo with her grandmother after Lily’s death. He was ill-equipped to care for her and scared he could lose her too because of his past. Hawley protects Loo by going after his enemies, which may not be the way you or I would or even could handle that kind of threat. Then again I haven’t made those kind of enemies. Hawley then watches over Loo from outside the house. I never doubted his love. Yes, I think Mabel Ridge loves Loo. Remember, however, that Mabel Ridge and Lily were estranged. How hard it would have been to leave Loo there, knowing Lily left as soon as she could. Maybe if Mabel Ridge gave Hawley any indication that she would allow Hawley into their lives more than peripherally and reluctantly, he wouldn’t have taken Loo and left.
And for what it’s worth, I never felt that Marshall loved Loo. I’m with Hawley on that one. Maybe I just didn’t like him: I never felt he was worthy of Loo. He proved it several times over … the last being shooting his own house with Hawley’s gun.
Well, interestingly the hardcover edition of the novel doesn’t have the epigraph. How weird is that?
Not sure what spin to put on it. But Moby Dick to me is about a man who cannot escape his obsession at the cost of destroying almost everyone around him.
I think Marshall loved Loo the way most teenage boys love their girlfriends. Lots of lust, real love, probably not so much. I didn’t really care for him either.
I noticed the hardcover cover doesn’t have an epigraph. I thought I missed it, so went back to read it after @Mary13 mentioned it. When I couldn’t find it, I thought maybe I misremembered what an epigraph is. 8-| But nope I remembered correctly: it just isn’t there.
@mathmom: “Lots of lust, real love, probably not so much.” Exactly.
That’s strange about the epigraph! I’m glad SJCM quoted it in full above.
Marshall was no match for Loo, but he was sweet and, more importantly, he arrived at a point in Loo’s life when she really needed him. He’s her gift from the sea, washing up at Loo’s feet from the ocean (as Tinti points out in an interview). He’s a bit of an outcast himself with Mary Titus as his mother, so I guess he and Loo need each other.
Marshall suffers from what I would call Principal Gunderson Syndrome – a good-hearted but weak man enthralled with, and puzzled by, a strong woman. @SouthJerseyChessMom, I had missed Principal Gunderson’s Amazon comment – perfect in light of the Hercules’ story.
From the same interview with Tinti: “I think what was fun about this book was exploring that important father-and-daughter relationship,” Tinti said. “This is a father and daughter who love each other very much. As far as larger issues, it’s about learning how to live and keep living — even when life is extremely difficult — and learning how to find love.”
I think Loo’s relationship with Marshall helped to warm her up and show that she is capable of love. Before that, she was an outcast who was turning into a bully, and I didn’t know what to make of her. By having Loo be the one left brokenhearted, we’re able to see that she is capable of connection.
I’ve learned so much on this thread, and gone deeper into the book than I had at first. Thanks especially to @Mary13 and @ignatius for your insights. Sometimes I feel like I’m sitting in a college lit class with very smart peers. My brain needs this! Thank you.
Lurker here. I had stopped reading after 3rd bullet since it just seemed like senseless violence. I went back after realizing the relationship to the Hercules trials. Thanks so much to this thread I got so much more out of the story than I would have.
Sometimes, the best discussions here have been about books I really didn’t like that much when I read them. (Looking at you Alice Munro!) I knew I loved the book, but I only saw about half of the stuff that Tinti put into it. Has any one read The Good Thief or Animal Crackers?
I agree with the discussion being so helpful with appreciating the books more. I sometimes wish that we could have some of the discussion questions before we read the book. It might help me to be more careful when reading it.
Aw, you guys are great. It makes me happy to have so many people participating (lurkers included!) and to read opinions from one end of the spectrum to the other.
@mathmom, I haven’t read anything else by Hanna Tinti (but I will now). @silverlady, I try not to look at the discussion questions in advance because they usually contain so many spoilers. (In fact, I even avoid reading the blurb on the back of the book for that reason.) However, I almost always post the standard questions from the publisher, so they’re easy to find online if you want to stay a step ahead and don’t care about knowing the outcome.
Sometimes, we rely on the questions a lot; other times, not so much. Their quality can vary.
@Mary13 mentioned that Babson’s “erratics” really do exist!
Since this is CC–that Babson, Roger W. Babson, “is best remembered for founding Babson College [in Wellesley, MA]. He also founded Webber College, now Webber International University, in Babson Park, Florida, and the defunct Utopia College, in Eureka, Kansas.” (Wikipedia)
LOL! I gave you the link to the Wiki article about Dogtown which has pictures of the erratics in my first post! I’ve taken walks there with my brother’s family who lives in Gloucester. It was quite startling how much of the landscape and weird events (like the greasy pole) I already knew about.
My apologies, @mathmom! I remember your post, but had not clicked on the link about Dogtown. And in that link I see there is a link to the bio of Roger Babson! I have lived in Mass. most of my life, so I recognized the greasy pole contest and some other locational things in the book, but had never heard of Dogtown or the erratics.
Regarding the greasy pole contest, did anyone else think that Hawley didn’t make it? The next chapter was the widows one, and at first I thought they were coming to offer their condolences to Loo, until I finally realized that they were hot for Hawley!
I thought it was confusing. I loved that Mabel Ridge, (who made me think of Mme Defarge who knit at the foot of the guillotine in A Tale of Two Cities) was there watching.
@mathmom, oh dear! I missed the part about the boulders. I had clicked on your link, read the Early History of Dogtown, and then scooted off to another link to read about the greasy pole. So many links, so little time…!
I loved that description of Mabel Ridge…yes, SO Madame Defarge.
@psychmom, what surprised me about the greasy pole competition is that Samuel Hawley didn’t succeed. I was all set for our hero (anti-hero) to be, of course, the only real man who could make it to the end, but Tinti defied the formula and off the pole he flew.
I think he did succeed, but it was kind of an ugly win. The pole breaks, the flag flies off and Principal Gunderson (his teammate) ends up catching it.