<p>Thanks, BU. I just read that thread.</p>
<p>bookworm,</p>
<p>It has been a while since I read it, but I thought the world he presented was oversimplified and strained credibility, that he wrote the book to convey a certain message but didn’t bring me along.</p>
<p>And while I respect OSC’s right to have his opinion, I cannot support the way he uses his profits to press a political agenda.</p>
<p>As you may be able to tell from this post, I’m still reading (but should be through sometime later today). Anyway, I need help with locations (War of the Worlds) and look what I found:</p>
<p><a href=“https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=102288308032371490824.000494ddb6bfc31e6e069[/url]”>Wells, War of the Worlds - Google My Maps;
<p>Also, the town of Woking has a Martian (and its cylinder) :)</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.google.com/search?q=woking+martian&client=firefox-a&hs=JMf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uoBJUuOBO4i02AXt-YG4Bg&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=921&dpr=1[/url]”>https://www.google.com/search?q=woking+martian&client=firefox-a&hs=JMf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=uoBJUuOBO4i02AXt-YG4Bg&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=921&dpr=1</a></p>
<p>Welcome to our discussion of The War of the Worlds and Ender’s Game!</p>
<p>From the outset, I have to be perfectly honest. Ender’s Game: I. Don’t. Get. It.</p>
<p>The book just didn’t speak to me; I found its hundreds of pages of evolving battle strategy acted out by man-boys engaging in unlikely dialogue simply…puzzling. And sometimes tedious. That said, I understand and respect the fact that this book resonates deeply with many, many people. As I read, I tried to hold in my mind the touching letters from readers that Orson Scott Card quoted in the introduction. I am ready to be convinced of the book’s merits. Speak to me, fans!</p>
<p>The War of the Worlds was classic Wells. He resurrects some of the ideas from his novel *The Time Machine<a href=“written%20a%20few%20years%20prior”>/i</a>. After reading The War of the Worlds and Ender’s Game back-to-back, I found them to be two different beasts, with very little in common despite the sci-fi label. One trait they did share was a focus on enemy strategy. I think Ender’s Game would have been better paired with The Lord of the Flies. </p>
<p>On to Discussion Questions! As usual, feel free to start anywhere – the questions are just a launch pad to get people thinking. Ignore them, add some of your own, or just start “opining.” :)</p>
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<p>Mary, I am relieved to read your comment about Enders Game
"The book just didn’t speak to me; I found its hundreds of pages of evolving battle strategy acted out by man-boys engaging in unlikely dialogue simply…puzzling. And sometimes tedious. "</p>
<p>I’m 1/2 way through it, and wondering when The Hungers Game, “exciting pace” kicks in, because this is quite tedious.</p>
<p>Count me in as another who doesn’t get Ender’s Game. I was really put off by all the abuse and the “end justifies the means” attitude. I also found the role of adults in the book quite odd - they were either manipulative (the military types) or ineffective (Ender’s parents).</p>
<p>I discussed this with my husband, who read it 20 years ago. He was so caught up in the cool fighting scenes that he didn’t even notice anything else.</p>
<p>I tried to connect the two and I started with that they were both invasion stories. In Question 8 from WotW and Queston 5 of EG I think it is a pretty pessimistic view of humans. Also both involve the inevitability of war between those who cannot communicate. EG reminded me of some earlier scifi I tried to read that was all about wars between worlds. I think we called them cowboy scifi. It is a continuing theme in scifi novels and almost always revloves around a lack of communictions.</p>
<p>In common:</p>
<p>Science fiction</p>
<p>Aliens vs. humanity</p>
<p>An appearance that differs from one’s own diminishes: Buggers, grotesque Martians - extrapolate into a previous book club choice Things Fall Apart and the British arrival in Africa. No one looks at “other” as significant. War of the Worlds starts with British superiority toward the grotesque creatures; we’re never privy to Martian thoughts but we quickly understand from their actions that they view man as insignificant. We see this also with Okonkwo in Things Fall Apart; he underestimates the British while the British never bother to know the man and his culture. (Oops sorry I’m going back in time to another discussion but it came to mind while I read.)</p>
<p>Lack of ability to communicate further devolves commonality/exacerbates problems</p>
<p>Both books have an underlying message that kindness, understanding, sympathy should come first, not later with regrets: Ender with his final understanding of Buggers and Wells’ character with repeated thoughts of man-to-animal and man-to-man in terms of the British Empire</p>
<p>A less that benevolent view that man will kill when push comes to shove. We see both Ender (in his fights) and Well’s character (with the curate) cause death - perhaps not meaning to kill - but feeling little remorse with the result - the strong survive ideal </p>
<p>And to continue that thought:</p>
<p>Best weapons (including Ender himself) win </p>
<p>Not only a conquered people fall but rather a culture/civilization - so much is lost. Wells’ mentioned museums, libraries. Buggers die with little known about their civilization.</p>
<p>Both books show the limited view of their protagonists - Wells’ character views Britain as the end all, be all (the world) and later OSC’s Ender with Earth. The total amount of area as “world” expands but not the underlying “we’re it.”</p>
<p>This will fall into so-weird territory but Peter sections in Ender’s Game reminded me of Anne Tyler’s book Saint Maybe. Anyone read it?</p>
<p>By the way, I like both books but surface level and deeper.</p>
<p>I like both books, and was surprised at how little in the Wells book seemed wrong except the premise that the Martians came from Mars. It’s easy for sci fi to age badly. </p>
<p>I read Ender’s Game when it first came out and was just blown away by it. With age and maturity I can see its flaws, but it still sucks me in. I think if you grew up as a bright misfit kid, it’s easy to identify with the whole idea that adults actually need you, that you are important. I don’t find the evolving battle strategy boring at all - and much of it - how it’s not just the strategy, but how you work with people very interesting. I love the first battle where Ender and Alai become friends. </p>
<p>As I was reading Wells I thought the artillery guy the most interesting character. Our narrator seems pretty hopeless - a good observer, but he doesn’t do a thing - and his motives are hazy to me. I had to go back to the beginning to try to figure out why in the world he’d gotten separated from his wife. Really? That’s what you’d do? Ender’s World in some ways, is the sequel to the War of the Worlds. If you know an alien race may come back, what do you do? They chose to go out and find the homeworld and destroy the menace at the source. It’s not clear yet what Well’s earth will do, since they don’t have the capacity for space flight.</p>
<p>I don’t think Card is suggesting that the ends justify the means. I think it’s considerably more complicated than that. In the end Ender finds a way to communicate with the Buggers and does save the Hive Queen. But I think it’s an open question if there might not have been some other way to achieve that result without the bloodshed and lost childhoods. Card is definitely interested in the question of how adults can use children for their own agendas. He dealt with many of the same issues in Songmaster, but with an even more morose ending. </p>
<p>While I could see a pairing with Lord of the Flies, I’m glad we didn’t do that. That book seems to me to about how if we are abandoned by civilization we’ll all turn into animals. Card’s view is pessimistic, but ultimately I think most people (and especially Ender) retain their humanity.</p>
<p>It’s been way too long since I’ve read Saint Maybe, hmm. I actually think Ender’s actions in subsequent books remind me of Ian. I’ll have to reread the Peter sections to figure out what you are thinking of there! I find Peter the hardest character to believe in. He seems so evil at first and yet he ends up being a force for good in the world.</p>
<p>^^^ I also noted “how little in the Wells book seemed wrong” over 100 later. </p>
<p>The battle sequences in Ender’s Game do not bother me either as I focused on the interaction of the characters, Ender’s growth as well as that of others. I’m looking quite forward to Ender’s Shadow - same story from Bean’s POV.</p>
<p>I also noticed the treatment of the wife in War of the Worlds. I would not be so forgiving.</p>
<p>I also thought of Ender’s Game as a sequel of sorts to WotW with the opponents more evenly matched.</p>
<p>Sidetrack now to Saint Maybe for mathmom - I agree that Ender and Ian may be the better match. I thought of Saint Maybe as I read Peter sections because Peter takes on the role of a person better than he - a better self - and through day-to-day living that role becomes the better person. Peter takes on his role cynically and, perhaps, underneath does not grow. (I haven’t read all the books, so don’t know.) Still, he moves away from the evil that identifies him at the beginning. Ian in *SM<a href=“love%20the%20book”>/I</a> acts out of guilt but makes himself step into a different role. He too becomes that man. Hmm, definitely see the Ender link too.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the comments so far. I’m feeling a little more open-minded toward Ender’s Game and am appreciating the parallels drawn between the two books. (Also, an aside to ignatius: Thank you for the great Google map in post 23!)</p>
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<p>This is an interesting observation, and it reminded me of something else the books have in common: The aliens communicate telepathically in both The War of the Worlds and Ender’s Game. </p>
<p>Graff tells Ender that the buggers “don’t have any communication devices on their ships.” They speak to each other “body to body, mind to mind” and“their communication, however they do it, is instantaneous” (p. 249).</p>
<p>The narrator of War of the Worlds notes that the Martians perform complicated tasks together “without either sound or gesture” and he writes, “I am convinced—as firmly as I am convinced of anything—that the Martians interchanged thoughts without any physical intermediation” (p. 123).</p>
<p>In a certain sense, this telepathic ability is more discouraging than wondrous. It’s as if perfect communication ends intra-species battle, but the desire for warfare is so ingrained that it then becomes necessary to seek out a new species, with whom there is no communication, in order to brutally conquer them.</p>
<p>I’ll get back to you. I read “Ender’s Game”. absolutely loved it. So much philosophy and political implications–Locke vs Demosthenes–who wins? Power? Intellect? Rationale? Majority? Is it possible for so few to control so many? A socialist global world? Separate countries to exist?
Social implications–do you let your enemy live and hope you’re right? How many kids for population control (I think China), only if they will serve society? Who is able to make that decision?
What constitutes childhood? Care-free, NOT pursuing your full intellectual capabilities? Does being smart make you more of an adult?
Read WotW years ago, but boring by comparison.</p>
<p>I was excited to read WOTW but I have to say I was a bit let down. I thought I’d get some sort of great adrenaline rush from the story, but it dragged. I think part of it has to do with the narrator:</p>
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<p>He just seems so detached in his analysis that I didn’t feel an emotional impact. I do appreciate the creativity for the time period, and in that sense, I am happy I read it.</p>
<p>One of the things in both books is they are meant in one way or the other to be enlightening, Wells didn’t write sci fiction as much as he wrote social commentary, and Ender’s Game has, as others have pointed out, ideas like how much can society expect from a child, what is ‘fair use’.</p>
<p>Both of them also have a deep rooted question if you look at the aliens, and ask yourselves what is evil? Both the Martians and the Buggers view earth people as basically non entities. Human beings routinely do things, not just to fellow human beings (things like slavery, genocide),but also other species, that end up with human beings destroying the other species or treating them cruelly or exploiting them…is that any different? We claim they are ‘less than ourselves’, but is it any different than the aliens in War of the Worlds or Ender’s Game?</p>
<p>What is also interesting is that something often considered ‘inconsequential’, turns out to be valuable. In Ender’s game, the Aliens are defeated by a child (who interestingly thinks he is playing a game, in part because a child, unlike an adult, might have second thoughts about wiping out a civilization), and children are often dismissed as being inconsequential, not adults, not able to ‘be useful’. In War of the Worlds, the Martians are brought down by a microbe/bacteria, something so small we cannot see it, they are defeated, as are the Buggers, by something not consequential. </p>
<p>The other thing they have in common is that in War of the Worlds and the Martian invasion, the Aliens believe they are acting in self preservation. The Martians, it is to escape a dying world; the Buggers, they see the earth as a possible threat to themselves (if I remember the details correctly), and in response to the Bugger threat the earth ends up nearly wiping them out, to ‘preserve themselves’, and it all speaks a lot that stories are not necessarily black and white. Ender realizes this, maybe because he is a child, and comes to understand that the Buggers were in many ways doing what the earth ended up doing to them, trying to survive. </p>
<p>There are also critiques of class based politics in both books. In War of the Worlds, you see characters, even faced with the threat of annihilation, clinging onto ideas of class in society in terms of how people interact , and it isn’t until it becomes so desperate for the humans that class lines break down. In Ender, the state limits reproduction to basically replacement, except for those who are deemed ‘superior’, who can help create more of ‘better’ people, it is another form of class that Card is I believe critiquing. It ends up that Ender does end up being special, not so much for his work in fighting the buggers, but rather in his humanity and insight in being able to communicate with the buggers and seeing them as having the right to exist.</p>
<p>On a slightly different tangent, someone mentions that the narrator is separated from his wife (something I recall when I originally read it, made me cry as a boy). There was a radio/recorded version of the War of the Worlds that was done in the 80’s, with Richard Burton reading the narration of the story and a soundtrack of music with it. After the narrator is separated from his wife in the story, Justin Heyward of the Moody Blues sings a song called “Forever Autumn”, that captured the emotion so beautifully (maybe moreso than the character in the book). I saw him perform that song live at a concert in NYC ages ago, and there wasn’t a dry eye in the house…(sorry, just had to mention it…:)</p>
<p>Great posts so far everyone! I like both books. I agree with psychmom that War of the Worlds was slow. It is definitely dated. I also kept wondering why he didn’t stay with his wife. It seemed unlikely for someone who supposedly loved her a lot. They also never mentioned what happened to the narrator’s brother at the end of the story. I wanted to know. We know he lived or the narrator wouldn’t have his story at all, but I wanted to know more.</p>
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It’s a lot easier to kill an enemy you don’t know or understand. You can believe they are beasts and their destruction inconsequential to the greater universe.</p>
<p>musicprint - I wrote my post and then saw yours before I posted. Nice post. As you can see, I agree with your “inconsequential” thoughts.</p>
<p>I guess I needed a soundtrack to go along with the book(WOTW). Even when the naarator and his wife were reunited, I didn’t feel the emotion of that moment. “Oh there you are - I knew you’d be here” just fell flat. </p>
<p>As others have said, the social commentary part is important and will be interesting to dissect!</p>
<p>The free audio version of WOTW that I listened to was also flat and emotionless. The narrator tells the story, but doesn’t get very excited about it.</p>
<p>I just wanted to say that if you like Ender’s Game, be sure to read the next book, Speaker for the Dead, which I thought was very well done, continuing the question of how do we know others - both those who are like us and those who are unlike us.</p>