The War within... The Republican Party

[BedHead]

<p>

Bulletandpima, I could match every horror story about British hospital’s with experiences in American ones. We can start with the one with the intern who saw ds for a possible broken arm rummage through cupboards looking for a small sling. He had no idea where they were kept and there was no one around to tell him.

</p>

<p>While I totally agree with your statement, I do think the minor anecdote you brought up is hardly compelling. McKinsey, hardly the bastion of liberal thinking, did a study indicating that the US pays more (to the tune of $1,600 per person) than peer nations (OECD), gets inferior treatment as measured in a variety of ways, and covers far fewer of its citizens.</p>

<p>And yet, some Americans still think we have the best healthcare system in the world because they read that really, really wealthy people from all over the world come to Harvard or UCSF to get the best treatment money can buy. Meanwhile, people like my friend (middle class) who is covered by Blue Shield and has an acute medical condition, spends his days these days in futility trying to get coverage and find those who will take care of him.</p>

<p>[McKinsey</a> & Company - Synthesis - Accounting for the Cost of Health Care in the United States - January 2007](<a href=“http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/rp/healthcare/accounting_cost_healthcare.asp]McKinsey”>http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/rp/healthcare/accounting_cost_healthcare.asp)</p>

<p>"The United States spends more of its income on health care than other developed countries and that share is rising. It is an arresting statistic that the U.S. now spends more on health care than it does on food.</p>

<p>In this new report MGI finds that the United States spends approximately $480 billion ($1,600 per capita) more on health care than other OECD countries and that additional spending is not explained by a higher disease burden; the research shows that the U.S. population is not significantly sicker than the other countries studied. </p>

<p>Instead, MGI found that the overriding cause of high U.S. health care costs is the failure of the intermediation system — payors, employers, and government — to provide sufficient incentives to patients and consumers to be value–conscious in their demand decisions, and to regulate the necessary incentives to promote rational use by providers and suppliers. </p>

<p>Given the less than optimal access for all U.S. citizens (relative to peer countries), MGI concludes that major opportunities for cost improvement —even if not the full $480 billion—are as possible as they are necessary although no single reform is likely to succeed in achieving the needed rebalancing. To be effective, reform in health care will need to apply sound principles on both the demand and supply side of the system."</p>

[gottaloveucla]

<p>

sell us on France as the model for our economy and healthcare system. If that were to happen, I would see the biggest R win in decades

</p>

<p>Where did I sell France as a model? Aren’t you sick of straw-man arguments?</p>

<p>

Bush’s unit was not called up… end of subject,

</p>

<p>If only it was. If you lived during the Vietnam Era you would know people signed up to the National Guard to avoid fighting in Vietnam. Kerry came from an influential family as did Bush and he could have got out of it, but he didn’t. Thats the end of that subject.</p>

<p>

This particular question, as phrased, does nothing more than to measure people’s opinions based on their level of ignorance of the issue

</p>

<p>Yes anyone who disagrees with the racist, elitist right wing is now ignorant.</p>

[1of42]

<p>

@fundingfather

This particular question, as phrased, does nothing more than to measure people’s opinions based on their level of ignorance of the issue. It is nothing more than a measure of how effective the Democratic obfuscate/demagogue machine has been in formulating public opinion at the headline level. I can see Howard Dean formulating a question like this as an attempt to find out how successful the Dems have been in their propaganda efforts.</p>

<p>However, it is dangerous to extrapolate an ignorant perspective into true beliefs - if you are really trying to find out what true beliefs really are. That is why the way that the USA Today question was phrased is more effective at measuring the population’s real feelings about the subject. It removes the ignorance factor and replaces it with actual facts.

</p>

<p>That’s a pretty absurd argument. It’s entirely inane, because it can be reversed: “oh, but those polls that favor the Republican policies don’t measure people’s true opinions, just their ignorance level” - at that point, why poll at all? It doesn’t matter what people “really” think, it matters what they think they think - because that is what they will act on.</p>

<p>These issues with that argument don’t even touch upon the relativity in poll questions - you say that question measures Democratic propaganda success, yet maybe another question measures Republican propaganda. Unless you have a more solid point about bias, your argument here is pretty specious.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>

I could match every horror story about British hospital’s with experiences in American ones.

</p>

<p>mercola.com is a good place to read about documented horror stories in this country.</p>

<p>I sell health insurance and it’s heartwrenching how many people I have to turn down because of health issues. However, I have mixed feelings about socialized medicine. If the entire mindset of healthcare vs disease management were to be overhauled, I’d think it was a great idea. but the way it is now, it would be a mess.</p>

[WashDad]

<p>

Instead, MGI found that the overriding cause of high U.S. health care costs is the failure of the intermediation system — payors, employers, and government — to provide sufficient incentives to patients and consumers to be value–conscious in their demand decisions, and to regulate the necessary incentives to promote rational use by providers and suppliers.

</p>

<p>This is another way to say, “the current cause of high health care costs is group health insurance.” That’s a really obvious conclusion, and I am surprised that we don’t hear it more often.</p>

[gottaloveucla]

<p>Btw, terribly ironic that I pointed out that McCain would possibly face attacks about his military record in a general election since they attacked Kerry’s record and you all called me crazy or evil.</p>

<p>GUESS WHAT? In the Republican Primary, they are doing that same exact thing to McCain. Life is a itch isn’t it.</p>

[bulletandpima]

<p>gottaloveucla,</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone was personally attacking you. Rather, from what I read they were pointing out that to attack McCain’s military record would be political suicide. </p>

<p>

In the Republican Primary, they are doing that same exact thing to McCain

</p>

<p>Please show us an example of this. From what I’ve seen in both campaign stump highlights and the Republican debates, all the other Republican candidates have been rather deferrential to McCain’s military service. They know the back-lash they would face if they were to question his service.</p>

[gottaloveucla]

<p>

Please show us an example of this. From what I’ve seen in both campaign stump highlights and the Republican debates, all the other Republican candidates have been rather deferrential to McCain’s military service.

</p>

<p>[Smears</a> again dog McCain in South Carolina](<a href=“http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=97480e73-39f7-49aa-96a7-2b161dafb7f4&k=63702]Smears”>http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=97480e73-39f7-49aa-96a7-2b161dafb7f4&k=63702)</p>

<p>

Produced by a group calling itself Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain, the flyer distributed recently to South Carolina newspaper editors alleged the 71-year-old Republican presidential candidate had betrayed fellow American prisoners of war held in North Vietnam.

</p>

<p>[McCain’s</a> campaign attacks group that assails his Vietnam record](<a href=“http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/mccainmailer011508-CR.html]McCain’s”>http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/mccainmailer011508-CR.html)</p>

<p>No one is going to go upfromt and say we are doing this, but I guess it was either Huck or Romney’s campaign.</p>

<p>Game. Point. Set Match. Pawn.</p>

[bulletandpima]

<p>From the article:</p>

<p>

The push-polling has been linked a group that supports Huckabee, who has denounced the tactics

</p>

<p>Before you declare victory, please show me a candidate who has not denounced these attacks as ludicrous. Smugly declare victory on this issue all you want. I’m sure the McCain campaign would love the Democrats to go down this path. The dems would just look foolish, and the country wouldn’t be able to say “President McCian” fast enough.</p>

<p>The 04 election is ancient history, gattalov. Give it the decent burial it deserves.</p>

[Christcorp]

<p>UCLA; your “Happy meal is short a couple of French Fries”. You are trying to “CHANGE” the discussion to fit your purpose. This ENTIRE debate that we have had here in reference to questioning McCain’s military record is about the competition questioning McCain military record. Just in case you aren’t sure who the competition is; it’s Romney, Huck; Thompson, etc… Clinton, Obama, Edwards, etc… The argument is that anyone running for office and going after McCain’s military record is committing political suicide. Just like a Non-Black candidate going after Obama on Black Social interests or a Non-Female candidate going after hillary on support of woman issues. You just don’t do it.</p>

<p>The links you provided mean absolutely nothing. All it did was show that you’ve taken this topic too personally and too emotionally. Finding any room for debate with you will probably be very difficult if not impossible, None of the candidates can be responsible for what some private group who aren’t under any type of scrutiny decides to say, print, protest, etc… It isn’t the candidates or the “Party” going after McCain’s military record, and therefor your point with the links is totally meaningless.</p>

[mini]

<p>Actually, it makes very good sense to (carefully, and through surrogates) go after Obama on Black social issues. Paint him as the “Black candidate”, and you lose the Black vote, and play on the racist doubts of everyone else.</p>

[gottaloveucla]

<p>

Before you declare victory, please show me a candidate who has not denounced these attacks as ludicrous.

</p>

<p>You must not follow up on national election at all! Candidates send their surrogates to run these campaigns and then distance themselves from it? Do you think Bush stood next to the Swift Boat people .</p>

<p>

UCLA; your "Happy meal is short a couple of French Fries

</p>

<p>Don’t you mean Freedom Fries?</p>

<p>

The argument is that anyone running for office and going after McCain’s military record is committing political suicide.

<br>

None of the candidates can be responsible for what some private group who aren’t under any type of scrutiny decides to say, print, protest, etc… It isn’t the candidates or the “Party” going after McCain’s military record, and therefor your point with the links is totally meaningless.

</p>

<p>People send their surrogates to do it. I showed you a Huckabee linked group went after McCain. Anyone running against the old fart war monger will do that. Btw organized religion is a neurological disorder.</p>

[gottaloveucla]

<p>Here’s a Bush Quote from Swift boat.

“We have not and we will not question Senator Kerry’s service in Vietnam.”[

</p>

<p>Same formula Dems will use. just a different target.</p>

[bulletandpima]

<p>My gosh, gottaloveucla. I have to admit, you’re correct that this will be a great tactic. We better let the democratic candidate selected know to immediately start attacking McCain’s “dubious” military record. </p>

<p>You have me so conviced I was wrong, I guess I owe you a drink in apology. Tell you what, I’ll buy you a scotch at the McCain Inaugural Ball next Jan. We can discuss your “stategy” then… </p>

<p>Please don’t get me to go down the road on why it worked for Kerry and why it won’t work for McCain. Discussing the obvious is boring…</p>

[bulletandpima]

<p>

Btw organized religion is a neurological disorder.

</p>

<p>This is the most offensive comment anyone could ever post. If you chose not to be religious that is you choice, but to state that anyone who choses to practice a faith, be it anything from Buddhism to Druid to Christianity is sick, it only illustrates your inflexibility to accept other people and their position.</p>

<p>It also is offensive to people who are fighting neurological disorders.</p>

<p>The earlier post was by Bullet, I am Pima</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>Gottalove seems to be trying to outdo himself as to how offensive he can get. Way to go!</p>

<hr>

<p>Getting back to the Republicans, here is an interesting video I just saw. It’s a soldier discussing McCain, huckabee & Ron Paul, and the military, the war, etc. He plays a clip from the debate, then starts talking at 3:35. </p>

<p>Interesting to hear from someone who’s in Iraq.</p>

<p>[YouTube</a> - Ron Paul Vs. Mike Huckabee and John McCain](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI0keH8sKHs]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI0keH8sKHs)</p>

[bulletandpima]

<p>Back to the original thread is there a war within the republican party…my answer is NO!</p>

<p>The republicans will always have the conservatives, they are the fringe, just as the democrats have the left wingers. </p>

<p>I have the most respect for people who vote not with the party, but with their own beliefs. </p>

<p>I have made my decision based on several things:</p>

<pre><code>1. Who has an overall voting record that I believe shows they are not “ALL TALK”
2. What is their goal…give me policies that can be implemented—not pie in the sky
3. Overall life experience
</code></pre>

<p>What I don’t vote on is the fear that ROE V WADE will be overturned, stem cell research, or anything that is a what if… life is too flipping short! Everyone is giving WAAAYYY too much power to the President. Remember, appointees must be approved by congress (both houses controlled by dems) Bills must be written and passed by the MOC’s b4 they hit the desk of the Pres. The President may want issues passed, but the legislation arm will make the bill!</p>