Homerdog, (I love your photo - I’m part of the CC dog lovers contingent!) the choice of college was an issue for us with that child. She did IB in high school and everyone there encouraged her to look at top LACs, which sounded good on paper. My husband and I are not educated, so we were happy to consider that advice, but here on CC I learned about the “parent choice application” and decided that I was going to have one. we visited colleges and I read course catalogs and felt strongly that my D would be plotting to take over the world if she went to a small college with fewer options, so I made the one large school my parent choice application. She was set to go to a smaller LAC until April of that year and I made her visit the honors college at the larger school and she knew immediately it was right for her. She has always been confident, but I still believe that the professor-mentor was just delighted to meet someone who loved his field and was excited. It didn’t cost him anything to let her in the class, and they are still very close today. I remember meeting him at her graduation and being intimidated at the thought, but he took so much joy in my child and her accomplishments that I was deeply moved. As I said, we are not educated, but this man of such standing and accomplishment quietly guided her academic career with incredible care. I would read on CC that people looking to graduate school needed to do this and then that and all sorts of things that I’ll never know about, but I could watch him arranging all of those things for her in exactly the right time, as well as connecting her to other famous professionals under the umbrella of his reputation. She has been so incredibly fortunate.
I went to Harvard which is very much a sink or swim kind of place where many profs are more interested in their research than having relationships with undergrads. I had a terrific experience there majoring in a tiny department where everyone knew each other. I liked having a mix of lecture classes (often with fabulous TAs) and small seminars. The house system regularly invited professors to come and have dinners with students and I had meals with some luminaries in the field. I wrote a senior thesis where I met regularly with two of the professors in my department. I had class sizes as small as 5 and many with 10 to 15 students.
That said if you major in biology, or government or economics you won’t have the same experience.
Doesn’t that kind of make the point that this small res college (I assume it is the Scholars program/dorm) within OSU is part of what is making her experience?
For every 10 kids who had personal relationships with the prof in a 400 student lecture, there’s 390 who did not.
Maybe those 390 didn’t want it, but if they did, maybe that school wasn’t right for them.
I am sorry but I find this article to be another example of what is wrong with the people running our universities. I did not notice one reference to money. How can anyone even begin to talk seriously on how to choose a school without talking about cost? All this talk about diversity in college choices is really just a fantasy world for the vast majority of families. This college is $55k to attend. The author obviously thinks this detail is too insignificant to warrant a slight reference to cost. Good for him.
“Do you really think your kids are going off to college to sit in a seminar room with 11 other 18 year olds to hear them talk about Shakespeare and what he means to them? You are paying the big bucks so your kids get exposed to big ideas taught by brilliant scholars who are also phenomenal teachers. And if that means there are a few hundred other kids in the classroom sitting at the feet of the master at the same time- I can live with that.”
Yes. At Bowdoin, they are. At Amherst, they are. At Wesleyan, they are. At Williams, they are. At Pomona and Middlebury, they are. At Wellesley, they are. At Bryn Mawr, they are. I’m happy for you that you can live with it. Many who have the luxury of the choice choose otherwise. Somehow my kid at Pomona will have to suffer through being taught by the more pedestrian of academics I suppose.
“You want to tell your kid to miss that experience? I did not. And I’m glad he had it-- along with lots of other phenomenal professors.”
With all due respect, you are working a little too hard here. You seem to be hung up a little on “fame”. I don’t know what you mean by “famous”, but a good Liberal Arts College has plenty of people who are brilliant in their fields, are well known in academia and who are also great teachers … it’s the emphasis on the latter quality that tends to distinguish the faculty at a LAC. Not exclusively, but they’re at small because presumably they want a more intimate environment. My kids have had plenty of “moments” at their respective colleges. I’m more interested in what happens day to day.
Moreover, there are a lot of brilliant teachers who don’t ever make a big splash to get them to the level of fame required to impress someone like you. Before Redford found the story of “A River Runs Through It”, nobody outside of Hyde Park had never heard of Norman MacLean. While a distinguished professor of English literature at Chicago, where he won awards for undergraduate teaching, he had, for whatever reason, published very little. Not famous, but I hear he was good at introducing undergraduates to poetry and the romantics.
You are justifying your entire position based on this one example of the big lecture hall with the big famous guy who changed your life, and now your kid can quote from his similar experience. I don’t think anyone has argued that those things cannot happen at a large public flagship. Let’s try not to be so categorical.
As I said in my first post: we are talking about a lot of factors here, some of which are subtle and hard to sound bite. I don’t know what to tell you. Generally speaking, you lose something when the classes start to get too big.
Can you, with a straight face, tell me that when your kids where in grade, middle and high school you didn’t care about the teacher / student ratio? That’s all you ever hear during the primary and secondary educational years. “We need more money in the XYZ school district. Those kids deserve the same class sizes as the kids who live on Mercer Island.”
Then, from one day to the next, it doesn’t matter at all?
It sounds like a big huge rationalization to me.
And nobody’s answered the question yet: why the honors college? Is that just there for the shy and withdrawn kids?
The real issue is the one @MassDaD68 hit on: the economy of higher ed, and finding a way to offer a gold standard education to all, regardless of their ability to pay.
"For every 10 kids who had personal relationships with the prof in a 400 student lecture, there’s 390 who did not.
Maybe those 390 didn’t want it, but if they did, maybe that school wasn’t right for them."
Yes, I was that kid. I think you’re missing the point.
During the undergraduate years, a kid’s personality shouldn’t be the sole or primary variable around which we design education.
Some kids don’t like to dialogue in class. If those kids attend a decent law school, nobody will ask them if they want to dialogue. They’re going to have to do it, because the socratic method works in teaching students to “think like lawyers”.
My older kid went to Boston University…it’s huge.
His classes never exceeded 30 students…except for his music ensembles.
Freshman English classes were required of everyone…and were small classes that were theme based…lots of discussion…25-30 kids…or less. Oh…and taught by professors…not TAs.
You make it sound like only elite top 20 small schools have classes that are interactive. Sorry, but you are wrong.
@thumper1 , BU has 17,000 undergraduates. While not small, it’s also not huge. The University of Washington has, by comparison, over 31,000. BU has a $1.7 billion endowment, and has the academic horsepower to attract kids who have choices and who can pay the freight. Their model obviously works for them if the typical survey course freshman and sophomore years is limited to 30. That’s not reality at Penn State.
“You make it sound like only elite top 20 small schools have classes that are interactive. Sorry, but you are wrong.”
And you are, at worst, putting words in my mouth, and at best, mischaracterizing what I’ve written, in each case so that you can make a splash point here. Sorry, I don’t play that game, and it is you who is wrong. I answered a point made by another poster regarding small seminars by listing a few representative schools. It doesn’t follow from that exchange that I suggest what you say I’m suggesting. Frankly, it’s an absurd comment.
If you want to argue that the typical state flagship university, often swelling with well over with 30k+ students, is really no different than a small college in terms of the undergraduate experience, I’m all ears. BU is not the example I’d go with.
Why an honors college at a large flagship? Simply put, so students can theoretically have the best of both experiences:
- Small seminars where students are confronted and challenged. Easier accessibility to mentors. Great advising. Many opportunities to collaborate with intellectual peers.
- Large selection of programs and courses. A deeper pool of faculty from which to learn. A large group of peers, providing some diversity and anonymity should the student want it.
Price often factors into this as well. We are full-pay, yet can’t afford 70k/year for a top tier private school. A place like ASU Barrett, with its full tuition scholarship for NMF, can be a fantastic option for families like ours.
So small classes are a good thing? Isn’t that the point that was being made in the OP?
Small classes exist at big Us and small LACs, public and private. Perhaps they are a feature of schools with more resources. Low student-teacher ratios are touted by colleges for a reason, no?
@OHMomof2
I am sorry that I did not make that clear. I meant to say that I went to OSU and had a different experience than the one my daughter is experiencing at a different large university.
But, yes I agree with what you are saying about the small residential college making this a good experience for her. For those who value smaller classes, Honors programs at larger universities and residential colleges that are offered at some larger universities do help students who want smaller classes.
One thing I really like about the program where she is, is that the smaller classes that are offered for her residential college (usually less than 50/ class) are for the most part only offered to freshman (with the exception of senior seminars). Students then transition to larger classes. By the time this happens, they are well grounded and experienced in taking university level classes and they are prepared for them. Also, they get to continue to take small classes occasionally through the Honors program and more often once they advance to higher level courses within their major. Students get some of the same advantages offered at small colleges while also getting the advantages of having a large selection of majors and courses at large universities.
"@momofsmartdancer She is part of the Honors Program at her university and also attends what is called a residential college that emphasizes undergraduate teaching. So, she has access to some small classes and also has teachers that are more geared to the undergraduate experience rather than doing research (something I found was prevalent at OSU in the first two years). There is more emphasis on teaching than weeding out within the residential college. BTW- some of her professors teach classes in the basement of her dorm and eat breakfast & lunch in the dorm cafeteria. So, not all large universities are impersonal.
Doesn’t that kind of make the point that this small res college (I assume it is the Scholars program/dorm) within OSU is part of what is making her experience?"
YMMV regarding small vs large classes. I dont think small vs large classes makes or breaks a university. My point was…there ARE small classes at larger school.
There are also large classes at smaller schools.
And I personally think that at ANY size school , a student can develop a relationship with a professor. This isn’t exclusive to the top 20 LACs or the like.
It can happen everywhere.
@ShrimpBurrito , I applaud you for having the stones to jump in. Most everyone else wants to anecdote me to death.
But here’s the rub with your response: they don’t, in fact, offer #1 so that they can, as you put it, offer “the best of both worlds.” They already offer #2 - #2 is who they are and what they’ve always offered. #2 is the status quo. Why change it or amend it or enhance it with #1 if #2 is so great on its own? Was anything missing.
Damn straight it was. All the things you list in #1 are a big deal to many people who think about the underlying quality of the undergraduate education for which one pays.
The very point of this thread has evolved into the following proposition: the relative lack of the very things you list in #1 at the typical swelling and over-populated large flagships.
Hey, the flagship honors college may be the true gold standard. I haven’t argued otherwise. It’s a ridiculously fantastic option, for anyone really - full pay or not.
My point was, what about the rest? The vast majority of kids at State U are NOT in the honors college. It’s elite, it’s selective and it’s not open to anyone. As you know, admission to flagship honors colleges is keenly competitive and much harder than general pool admissions to the same school. At some places, the discrepancy between student populations is enormous. It is the proverbial school within a school.
To me, the very existence of the honors college vindicates my point entirely. I still think there are advantages to the small college that are not entirely replicated by the flagship honors college, but at that point I’d agree we’re probably splitting hairs.
You are 100% right about the advantages of small colleges. There are, however, advantages to large colleges, as well as disadvantages to both. The issue is finding which option has the best balance between the advantages and disadvantages for each individual student. One of mine really did best in a big school and the other is better off in a small school. The great thing is that many schools combine a bit of both, so it’s not always either-or.
"So small classes are a good thing? Isn’t that the point that was being made in the OP?
Small classes exist at big Us and small LACs, public and private. Perhaps they are a feature of schools with more resources. Low student-teacher ratios are touted by colleges for a reason, no?"
Exactly.
I see your point, @MiddleburyDad2. So then, where does a place like U Toronto fall on this spectrum? Massive public university, broken up into several residential colleges. ALL first year students have the opportunity to take six credit hours (1 FCE by their scale) of seminar classes. The goal is to help students transition to college life, and establish meaningful relationships with at least one full professor.
In my opinion, one benefit of large University Honors classes is that only the best academic students can take these classes. The intellectual standards of these courses is very high, and is driven in part by your fellow classmates. In some LACs, they might have small classes in the same subjects, but you will find some students in the class who are not necessarily top-notch academically. (For example, a B/C student on athletic scholarship).
Conversely, I would say that the average academic ability of a student at most LACs is going to be higher than that of the average student at a large public university. If my child was a B/C student, I would probably put more consideration into them going to a small LAC that had a higher percentage of small classes since my child would not qualify for the Honors program at a large university. Again, this is about finding the best fit for each individual student.
"Why an honors college at a large flagship? Simply put, so students can theoretically have the best of both experiences:
- Small seminars where students are confronted and challenged. Easier accessibility to mentors. Great advising. Many opportunities to collaborate with intellectual peers.
- Large selection of programs and courses. A deeper pool of faculty from which to learn. A large group of peers, providing some diversity and anonymity should the student want it."
Anyone familiar with the honors college at Ole Miss?
I seems like it could be the best of both worlds and SEC sports too!
And for moderately high stat students it would be less than half the price of a UC for us!
Probably not, since I don’t think there are many LACs that are not D3 and so most LACs don’t offer athletic scholarships at all.
But your point is taken. A selective honors program at a large U vs a not very selective LAC would be two different experiences for a strong student.