This is how you and your child select the right college

Parents Forum
81

@MiddleburyDad2 I don’t think getting into Pomona would have made me a shoo-in for any of those schools. Northwestern actually didn’t take me.

My perspective is not really representative of this board as a low-income to college student. The only public schools I could seriously consider were in Texas and those that offered full scholarships for National Merit Finalists. I was guaranteed to UT Austin since I was in the top 3% of my high school class, and I applied to Plan II as a good in-state option, finding out I got in mid-November.

Pomona was my top choice because it seemed to care the most for its students while largely mitigating the flaws seen at other LACs- rural, inactive locations; limited course offerings; weak science programs; limited resources and funding opportunities; boring social life.

But now, having gone through it, I think those critiques are largely overblown of other LACs. Even at Pomona- with only 1600 students- there were far, far, far more courses I was interested in than I could take…and this was just at Pomona itself. More than 90% of my friends came from Pomona rather than the five colleges, and most of my extracurricular involvement was Pomona based. But I never found it too small or restrictive. That said, there were definitely those who did and heavily used the Claremont Colleges to get a larger experience. And I think having access to LA was one of the best parts of the experience- I would have grown rather weary if I was stuck in Claremont for my four years.

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@nostalgicwisdom , yeah, that’s right, though I’d also expect the average Pomona admit to have as good a shot or better to get into Northwestern. I suppose I ought to pull back the reigns on my comment as it relates to Duke as well. The others for sure you should have had access to if you wanted it. Pomona is very selective.

@saillakeerie , I’m having a little trouble following you, but I’ll try and and answer your questions:


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certainly I would agree that while the non-IB kids at the school (not the district) probably benefit indirectly, of course the IB kids benefit the most. any other conclusion would be absurd.

I don’t think any of us know what the ability/smarts quotient is in any school district. Ability and aptitude know no boundaries. There are smart people everywhere. If you mean affluence, my district is made up of several suburban communities east of Seattle. Some are affluent, others are built on the backs of Boeing workers, meaning good paying jobs but hardly affluent.

“Why would it be the case that an honors program would need to have the same overlapping benefit? Is there a problem with that?” I don’t know, but I don’t think I said that it had to. I think I said it probably didn’t overlap much, as a guess. This is where you started to lose me.

“Kids at large institutions can still benefit from honors programs even if they do not participate in them. Such programs can provide many of the benefits you note for IB programs.” And this is where I declare myself officially lost. I have no idea what you’re asking me, but it seems inconsistent with your first and second questions/assertions. In any event, no, I don’t think it’s the same thing as the IB example. If you attend a state flagship university with a typical honors college, you, as the non-honors college kid, don’t really have access to the honors college. Separate (and more rigorous) admissions, etc. It’s not for you. How you would benefit from a selective and roped off honors college at a 35,000 student university is not something I can answer. It seems a stretch. The example of the IB program within a 1200 student high school, where any kid can take any IB class he/she wants, is entirely different and distinguishable on so many variables.

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Like I said: you lost me.

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@MiddleburyDad2 Sorry for the confusion. But I think this is at least in large part the source of it:

This isn’t how honors programs work at large colleges (at least not the ones with which I am familiar). Honors students do not take all honors classes. Some of the classes they take are non-honors. Professors who teach honors classes also teach non-honors classes. Facilities used for honors classes are also used by non-honors classes. So to the extent you attract more funding (such as industry sponsoring research, facilities, etc.) and better faculty, non-honors students benefit as well (though like with the IB program not as much as those in the in the IB program). And the same intangible benefit in terms of academic vibe is there as well. And if the ranking/reputation of a college which creates an honors college increases because of it (higher stats, more research, better facilities, etc.) all students will gain benefit from that. Diluted more so than with a small high school but there nonetheless. And there are a lot of kids at large state colleges who would be there even if the school didn’t have a honors college. That they may not benefit from it much (or at all) isn’t an issue.

As for skills/ability, are there kids at your school who score 20 or lower on the ACT? If so, how many of them take IB classes? How well do they do in them? Although technically all kids can take any IB class he/she wants, effectively is that true?

Locally IB schools open the program to all kids (who are interested in any event) but there is an application process to get in and not all kids are accepted. In those instances it isn’t even technically true any kid can take any IB class he/she wants. Much less effectively so.

Many colleges with honors programs also allow kids to enter the program after they enroll (typically some time in sophomore year). Technically that opportunity is available to all students but effectively its not because there are GPA requirements and can be space limitations as well.

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My D did the full IB program at a very rough inner city school. It was totally a school within a school. She got an absolutely amazing education, and the only time there was overlap was when the IB kids tutored kids outside IB. However, there were a couple of things I noticed, and which I still turn over in my head. The kids in IB were a whole other demographic than the rest of the school, but such a small number that they didn’t skew the school’s total numbers from very poor and very strongly black. The kids in IB were white, Asian and much more well off than the rest of the school, but in college applications, they received the same school profile discussing poverty and low achievement, so I always thought that picture wasn’t truly reflective of the individual students. Also, the school and local politicians enjoyed discussing the public/private partnerships and grants that the school received. Like free high-end SAT prep, internships, trips. But they never mentioned that those benefits went to the IB kids, who could have afforded all those things anyway.

Edited to add: in my D’s school, no one outside the IB program was allowed to take IB classes (although people were allowed to apply in for the full diploma and also on an individual classes track), and the AP classes were mostly filled with IB kids. The school got waivers for the cost of some of the testing, although most of the test takers weren’t poor.

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Middleburydad: I actually stated the same about kids that couldn’t finish at large publics because they couldn’t get into required classes. Neither option is right for all students.

You clearly think LACs are right for every student, but many students are not interested in those schools or they want majors not offered (engineering or other hard science). Why do you discount that a research university could not be a good choice for some students?

I think offering IB and/or AP is great. But let’s not pretend that the student who just misses the cutoff for those programs/classes is just as well served in regular courses. There are kids that have no interest or ability to participate, but if you take the “lowest” entrants into those programs, based on whatever criteria are used, they could easily be replaced with the “highest” rejects who might do just as well. The rejects are being kept out of the experience. If a school district places the best teachers and the most resources in one program, it is not serving all students well. I am a strong supporter of gifted ed, of high standards and of meeting the needs of the top students (and the kids who need extra help), but that has to be balanced with a good education for the kids in the middle who often feel neglected.

86

“I see your point, @MiddleburyDad2. So then, where does a place like U Toronto fall on this spectrum? Massive public university, broken up into several residential colleges. ALL first year students have the opportunity to take six credit hours (1 FCE by their scale) of seminar classes. The goal is to help students transition to college life, and establish meaningful relationships with at least one full professor.”

@ShrimpBurrito the problem is what happens after first year and what about all the other courses taken? I know that most programs at U of T have a general first year and then you apply to your major in second year, so I guess in theory 2nd year classes should be smaller depending on the faculty. My understanding is however that the residential college system really is primarily for housing purposes and that courses are not broken into sections according to residential college. The entire student body takes courses as a whole. I also find it hard to believe that a 1 FCE seminar course in first year is going to lead to an ongoing meaningful relationship with a full professor beyond that class, especially if it’s not in the student’s area of major. It shouldn’t be the reality for 1 course in 1st year, it should be the reality for most courses all 4 years. The only reason U of T does this is so that they can claim that they care about their students and that they are not warehousing them in giant impersonal lecture halls for the sole purpose of generating revenue, even though that represents the bulk of a student’s 1st and 2nd year courses. As far as I’m concerned, it’s purely a marketing gimmick. It’s interesting that U of T only provides average class size info for it’s handful of direct entry programs (Arts & Science, Applied Science and Engineering, Architectural Studies, Music, Kinesiology and Physical Education). They don’t provide the same information for those programs that admit to a general first year which encompasses the bulk of all first year students.

Personally I agree with @MiddleburyDad2. This is a big focus for me because DS15 is very much an academic and intellectual. Seminar courses, debate with fellow students, interaction with professors, this is exactly what I want for him and I’m having a tough time trying to figure out which Canadian universities will provide that. Ontario has some of the highest ranking universities in terms of quality of course offerings and selectivity of the student body, but it also has some of the highest student/faculty ratios. Do we aim for a less selective school out of province to get smaller classes but with less course selection or put up with larger classes at one of the more “prestigious” schools (if you can really call an undergraduate degree at any Canadian university prestigious) in Ontario with greater option for courses? Even the smaller “primarily undergraduate” focused schools in Ontario have large student/faculty ratios in the first 2 years and they aren’t that selective. It’s a tough choice and it shouldn’t be. You shouldn’t have to choose between quantity and quality.

If we could afford it, I’d have DS15 apply here: https://questu.ca/

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Hi @gwnorth. Haven’t we had a similar discussion on another thread? :smiley:

" I know that most programs at U of T have a general first year and then you apply to your major in second year, so I guess in theory 2nd year classes should be smaller depending on the faculty."

Exactly.

So you think U of T, a top 20 international research university, should have seminar classes of <20 for each Bio 101 class? How in the world do you suggest they do that? It’s logistically impossible and impractical. I think it’s fantastic that such an esteemed university has those first year seminar classes at all. I noticed recently that McGill has started offering (a smaller selection of) first year seminars, citing the success of U of T’s program.

Have you/your son looked through U of T’s clubs list? There must be opportunities there for intellectual discussion. U of T hosts some of the world’s best and brightest, and they can’t spend ALL of their time in huge lecture halls and holed up at Robarts. And the professors all have office hours. If your son has the fortitude to take advantage of those opportunities, there’s no reason he can’t establish relationships with his professors. What I keep hearing about these big Canadian universities is that amazing opportunities are there, you just have to put some effort into claiming them.

Having said all that, I understand your dilemma, and I wish you and your son the best in finding the right fit.

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I think one could make a similar argument against honors programs at public universities. Those rejects are being kept out of “the experience” (the small classes, the better professors, the early registration, special housing, internships - whatever) also, no?

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@ShrimpBurrito yes we have had this discussion before lol, I’m just still not sold on U of T or McGill though you make some compelling arguments.

I went to a larger school (UWO) and I rarely sought out aid from TA’s or professors. In fact I think I can only remember one such instance, in my 2nd year statistics course, and only because I was struggling. It was also my second attempt at the course. I don’t know why. Maybe in part because I never learned to approach my teachers for assistance and maybe in part because I felt intimidated. I don’t remember there being extensive clubs either. I think I slept walk through my 4 years at university. As a result I felt pretty anonymous and I feel that I sold myself short in what I could have accomplished and the experiences I could have had. I realize that my experiences are biasing me in regards to helping to guide DS15 in his university search, but he has so much potential. I really want the best possible experience for him. He’s not the most outgoing kid, though he’s getting better at being more proactive and taking initiative. I worry about him getting lost at a large school like I was. In any case I will encourage him to not repeat my mistake and to make sure to take advantage of office hours, even if for the sole purpose of letting his TAs and professors have an opportunity to get to know him.

As far as a BIO 101 class having a seminar class of <20, no I don’t expect that. I’m thinking more for arts and humanities courses. Not the hard sciences. I do expect the science and math classes to have manageable sizes for their lab and tutorial sections however. I just really like the seminar vs lecture approach to humanities courses and I hope that DS15 will be able to have that opportunity. It’s what he is getting now in his congregated AP program. Admission was highly selective and they take their core classes together as a cohort. In essence as others have mentioned a school within a school.

I’ve been researching how he can have a similar experience for university and think that he should consider a program like the Foundation Year Program at the University of King’s College (https://ukings.ca/area-of-study/foundation-year-programme/). It has the advantage of a small intimate campus but is affiliated with the much larger Dalhousie University. I think it offers the best of both worlds, at least for the first year. I have been noticing more and more schools are starting to offer integrated foundational first year programs. UBC also offers one both in the arts and the sciences - https://scienceone.ubc.ca/why-science-one. These programs encompass the entire first year not just an offering of 1 first year seminar course like U of T and some other schools do.

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@ThankYouforHelp Thanks for pointing out the stats to class sizes. I agree with you and that is the main reason people seek out the private schools - to avoid those massive lecture halls at the state flagships. The trick is to inquire as to how many large lecture halls the school has built. I find it refreshing to ask a tour guide this and get a replay that they have none and if they do, the tour guide has never seen one. Remember. If they built the great hall, they will use it. Beware.

I totally understand that cost is the main driver of students going to the state schools. Unfortunately you sometimes just cannot avoid this huge arenas.

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@gwnorth
Yes, I almost mentioned the UBC Ones program! I don’t know that much about it though. My D is not interested–she wants to jump right into her major classes. Be sure to check how those Ones programs intersect with AP courses. There might be some redundancy if your son is already doing advanced coursework. But then again, he may be okay with that. We spoke with an advisor at UBC who stressed to us not to underestimate how difficult the transition to university is for most students.

For the record, the four members of our family who have visited UBC absolutely swoon over it. But, it is gigantic. It sounds like the Dalhousie/Kings College could be a great option for your son. Best of luck!

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I disagree-- I’m a bigger fan of the active learning that occurs in the small seminar room.

I had the opportunity in graduate school to take a course with person that was the master in the field. It was a moderately large lecture hall and the experience was not nearly as good as my senior seminar in history as an undergrad where there were 8 of us in the class. What made the seminar amazing is that for 8 weeks,a different student led the class—picked the readings, lectured and then led the discussion that followed.

Outside of a couple of intro science classes, I never had a class larger than 25 student (and most were more like 15). You couldn’t hide-- there was no passive “sitting at the master’s feet”, if you didn’t have the reading done you were screwed. Also, if you skipped a class- it was noticed and likely awkward because you’d run into the professor somewhere on campus later that day

I’m completely biased toward smaller schools and think the experience there is not compable/replicable at a larger school.

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@zoosermom I have seen similar experiences with my nieces who went to a local public school on the North Side of Chicago which has a very diverse socioeconomic intake of students. N1 was in the IB programme and ended up at a top New England university. N2 was told in 5th grade (the “pre-IB”) programme at the local primary feeder that she would not be admitted to the IB programme so she ended up in the regular programme and got a sub-par education. The parents eventually got fed up by 11th Grade and sent her to a private high school. This just illustrates how the kids that are not in the IB or top honours programmes (particularly the ones that just miss the cut often get short-changed).

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@mom2and, where to begin.

I don’t ‘clearly’ think any such thing, and I don’t discount that a research university could be a good choice for some students. There are myriad reasons why it would be a good choice. Where you and so many part ways with me is the singular focus on what a rising senior in HS ‘prefers’. That, to me, is not the end of the discussion if you’re a parent. We all prefer a lot of things, but that doesn’t mean necessarily (and in the case of teenagers, even likely mean) that what we prefer is the best option for us given a set of circumstances. Maybe the kid, like me at that age, who wants to just be left alone would benefit the most from a smaller environment in which he/she had to engage with others. I don’t know. The role of the undergraduate experience, in my view and that of a great many other people, is to get a well-rounded and sound education, with depth and rigor, so that the recipient is equipped to pursue a variety endeavors. Economics get in the way for a great many, and so, for example, having a predictable job outcome in one’s early 20s is a significant externality to the whole thing. I … get … it. Some kids need to major in accounting rather than economics or math. Some kids need to major in engineering rather than physics. So be it. And educating a great many people at a subsidized price also means collecting them in big lecture halls and doing it all at once. So be it.

But none of that means it’s a better education. It means it was the best given a set of circumstances. All else being equal, and it’s not, as I clearly acknowledged, there are limitations on how you can teach and administer a class beyond a given size. That’s my view, and I’m far from isolated in holding it. That’s it. It’s not personal.

“I think offering IB and/or AP is great. But let’s not pretend that the student who just misses the cutoff for those programs/classes is just as well served in regular courses.”

Where did I say that? I don’t even know why you wrote this.

“There are kids that have no interest or ability to participate,”

And?

“but if you take the “lowest” entrants into those programs, based on whatever criteria are used, they could easily be replaced with the “highest” rejects who might do just as well. The rejects are being kept out of the experience.”

And? If there’s no IB program, they’re still being kept out of the experience, and now the kids who want it don’t have it. Again, I don’t understand your point here. And, again, at our school at least, IB courses are open to anyone.

“If a school district places the best teachers and the most resources in one program, it is not serving all students well. I am a strong supporter of gifted ed, of high standards and of meeting the needs of the top students (and the kids who need extra help), but that has to be balanced with a good education for the kids in the middle who often feel neglected.”

You’re going out into your own orbit here. My only proposition was that the IB program, at least as it’s administered in our school, raises the bar for everyone. The IB teachers work with the non-IB teachers in the same departments, and as I said, the IB classes are open to anyone. Do the non-diploma kids take IB Physics II HL? I’m guessing not often, but they can if they want to, and there are a lot of other IB courses for them to pursue if they have an interest in something in particular. IB Film, IB Visual Arts, IB History, IB English, etc. etc. It’s a very welcoming program. If it weren’t there, the school would be overall a lesser place. Oh, and the brilliant Harvard PhD who teaches chemistry there in the IB program also teaches regular section chemistry.

My other proposition was that I think the “cross benefits” for lack of a better term is more diluted when drawing an analogy to a large university and its honors college.

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“Outside of a couple of intro science classes, I never had a class larger than 25 student (and most were more like 15). You couldn’t hide-- there was no passive “sitting at the master’s feet”, if you didn’t have the reading done you were screwed.”

This is a big one for me. I completely agree. To be forced to articulate yourself and to think on your feet, to have your thoughts exposed and subjected to scrutiny in front of other people … it’s very beneficial to the process of education. If tends to force a more deliberate approach to understanding, and it uncovers along the way gaps in your reasoning about this or that. From an education perspective, it’s healthy.

Another one is that there are a lot of courses in which the prof can test you based on a fill-in-the-bubble or ask you to write out your answers to a test prompt. With 500 + kids in a class, you can guess which method they’ll choose more often than not. When you are forced to answer a question on a blank piece of paper, not only are you honing your writing skills along the way, but by writing things out one’s depth of understanding of something is more rigorously tested. This is why there is so much writing in the IB curriculum. Same concept.

It’s fine if the ability to be anonymous and avoiding engagement is actually a compelling value for a kid. I think more often than not it has more to do with big Greek scenes, big time sports and other advantages of the big school and campus environment. I doubt there are legions of serious academic kids who are actually thinking, “yeah, I want to hide among a sea of 600 kids so that I can do whatever I want.” In any event, however you rate it, the two experiences are not the same, which is an assertion I find to be ridiculous.

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@jmnva06 wrote:

This is my sophomore D’s experience at her LAC. Her econometrics class has 8 students. Her other econ class has 15. Her literature class has 12 and her biggest class is her computer science class which has 23. There really is no place to hide and as jmnva06 says, if you skip class you’ll likely run into your professor later on campus. And the professors genuinely love teaching undergrads.

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It depends on the subject. Particularly for less popular majors like physics, students looking for smaller schools (including, but not limited to, LACs) should check that the departments of majors of interest at the smaller schools are of sufficient size for their academic needs.

On-time graduation is often much more related to the students than anything else. Middlebury and Pomona are among the most academically selective schools, and so their students are highly capable. Their students also tend to include a very high percentage from wealthy families who have no financial worries, and they give good financial aid to the rest. In comparison, big state universities are often significantly less selective, so they have more students who have academic difficulty finishing in four. They also tend to have students from less well-off families, and some do not have good in-state financial aid (Pennsylvania is well known for this), so their students may have to work more hours to earn money to pay for school, often requiring them to take lighter course loads (or take semesters off to work).

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Once again, large university here. Except for our absolute intro course, none of our department’s undergrad courses are that big. A handful of classes with 60 or 90 students but GSIs don’t have more than 20 (usually) per section. The vast majority have less than 30.

At my undergrad, I can count on one hand the number of courses where I had over 50 students. And of those, two were intro to physics and intro to economics. In courses like that, I truly just want to be lectured to so I can learn the basics.

I had zero interest in greek life. I only “went” to one frat party and that was to pick up my friend’s little brother who needed a ride home. Sports? Yeah, that was a plus. I like sports and having a competitive team to root for. It didn’t factor into my decision though.

I went to a high school with over 6k kids. Yes, I liked the anonymity when I wanted it but just like in college, I had the relationships I wanted. Not everyone wants to know everyone in their school. Hell, when I started dating my partner, I truly worried about what would happen if we broke up and I had to continue to see them at a school with some 50k people. I can’t imagine a school of 600 people what that would be like.

Oh and I rejected the HC option at my uni because I didn’t see any additional benefits. Went on to graduate PBK and a solid foundation for my multiple graduate degrees.

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@romanigypsyeyes , that’s fair. To each his own, of course.

One point of disagreement would be the number 600. I’m not aware of many (or any) LACs that small. They would be the exception.

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"I think more often than not it has more to do with big Greek scenes, big time sports and other advantages of the big school and campus environment. I doubt there are legions of serious academic kids who are actually thinking, “yeah, I want to hide among a sea of 600 kids so that I can do whatever I want.” "

@MiddleburyDad2 I think you’re missing how being in such an environment can stretch serious academic students in productive ways. (Warning: I’m going to anecdote you :wink: ) My serious academic D wants to attend a large university, not because she wants to hide or party or watch football games (ha!), but because she wants to put her independence and self-discipline to the test. She wants to have the freedom to fail, and wants to be around peers who have that same independent streak. On the many college visits we’ve done, she has found more of “her people” at the large publics than at the small privates. Lots of mature, independent 18 year olds don’t need or want a coddling environment, and are naturally curious enough to maximize the excellent opportunities that large universities can offer.