“But my D does not have an easier path in terms of academics, nor is she less independent or curious, even though her class sizes are much smaller than his are.”
In fact, if we’re being intellectually honest about this chat, the truth is that’s it’s more often the opposite. They tend to be more intellectually curious and the academics tend to be more rigorous. Those are common reasons why a kid chooses the LAC instead of a large research. These are categorical claims, but rather references to accepted generalizations.
but to the extent the topic in this thread is comparing and contrasting the LAC vs. the large state public, it is worth noting the one or two variables about the LAC structure itself that encourages 4 and out. This is one of the handful of things I can say I have experienced. It is a noticeable thing that the LACs want you to get on with your business and figure out how to graduate on time.
But that is for two specific LACs that are more selective than large state publics in general. It is not necessarily true that all LACs are similar in this respect.
For a more relevant comparison, http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/search1ba.aspx?institutionid=174066,174251,174233,174075 is a comparison of University of Minnesota campuses. Note that Morris is a LAC of about 2,000 students. But it does not have graduation rate that is higher (relative to the other campuses) than the trend suggested by incoming student stats (GPA and SAT/ACT).
For a kid who gets into any of the audition-only programs at NYU it would be very hard to find an LAC (except for Julliard if you consider that an LAC ) which can compare with the rigor and difficulty of the program. For some kids- CMU (but a research U, not an LAC). Michigan has some top performance programs- but again- a huge research U. Yes- for filmmaking there are a couple of the California LAC’s and maybe Emerson. But otherwise- NYU all the way (or UCLA, USC).
For a kid who wants an undergrad ed program (not for everyone, but there are kids like that) NYU’s programs are superb. Ditto nursing.
Middlebury, hate to say it, but your categorical statements make you sound a bit tone deaf. Nobody is going to Amherst to study nursing. We all get that. But to proclaim across the board that NYU stinks and Williams rocks- well, depends on what the kid is looking for.
If you posted with a bit more nuance you’d have more credibility here.
Your point on NYU is well-taken. I can think of many reasons for a kid to go - as you say, performing arts, perhaps finance, or maybe the kid wants access to year round internships or just loves Greenwich Village and NYC. Different strokes
@ucbalumnus , I don’t disagree. I’m aware of some local LACs/small universities that are not nearly as selective as Pomona or Midd or your typical NESCAC, and that is the feedback I get from those who have experience with them.
I’m talking about UPS, Willamette, L&C, etc. But I’m not surprised that it’s not uniform.
Eldest went to honors program in large public. The honors college made him take particular classes each semester to have that small college feel and camaraderie among honors students. Those classes were sometimes fun but never mainstream. He ended up transferring and those classes were a waste of time in terms of transfer credits since they were odd classes unique to that honors program. No equivalent at other major colleges. And the honors classes were one of the 4-5 each semester, so the rest of the time one is lumped in with everybody. Nice thought but not so useful in this particular honors program. Problem is, you can’t have an honors section of every class with few honors students, so it’s going to be a small selection at any school. So no, honors is not a cure to make big=small LAC. I do think it is a great compromise, but it did take away credits from more relevant electives for my kids interests. Maybe 1 of the honors classes was really fun and interesting to him, the rest much less so.
My youngest has had far more interaction with profs in his mid size school that his brother who attended 2 large unis. Partly personality possibly, but partly the size of the classes and attitude of profs with large classrooms.
Odd that we’e talking education and the quality of it, for various sorts of kids, then reducing it to big vs small. See any irony in that?
I don’t see how we reduce it that way and still claim the discussion is about “quality.” As Romani kept pointing out (and some others,) quality is found where it is, for that kid, his or her interests, how likely the kid is to take advantage of certain aspects.
D1 wanted to confirm her major existed, had its own focus, and faculty strengths in that arena. And then, a level of competition among peers that would enhance her own educational depth and dedication. That wasn’t about 10 kids in a seminar or 100 packed into a lecture hall.
She couldn’t have been satisfied at our flagship or those in our region, because her major (and the ‘minors’ she wanted) didn’t exist, in their purer form. She could have thrived at many, many top publics and competitive private research unis. Not at many, many smaller schools.
She chose an LAC (under 2k kids) based on the dept and feel (OOS publics were not financially realistic.) She got what she wanted, was superbly educated, and made lots of friends, tons of them, across many majors. And when she graduated, no, she didn’t know “everyone.”
I didn’t see the “coddling” comment as a finger pointed at LACs. There are some kids who want the oversight and they may find it at some smaller colleges. Fair enough, not an indictment of all smaller colleges.
“They tend to be more intellectually curious and the academics tend to be more rigorous. Those are common reasons why a kid chooses the LAC instead of a large research.”
Yup, that’s generalizing. Not all LACs are created equal. Not all big monster rah rah unis are awful. Not all majors have the same opportunities at all schools. Get past assumptions based on size.
Size alone isn’t it. Some here are reducing it to that, assuming one is absolutely “just a number,” while all LACs offer a more personalized experience, better classes, better peers. On CC, we’ve got to know there are many shades. The only way to have conversations and collaborate isn’t to go small.
Many get that in their large unis, depending on the depts, the classes, and the kid’s willingness to speak up or show up. You can’t ignore posters here who did get the attention, at large unis.
I cringe when generalizations are made about LACs, too. Lots of them barely get by, have disinterested or overworked faculty, or are suitcase schools.
My daughter is at a large university often mentioned on CC ( 16,000 undergrads). She has had plenty of personal attention. I thought she would do better at a small school ( and pushed for one) but she thought otherwise.@lookingforward is right.
Honors programs vary greatly. The link someone posted earlier in this discussion explains that as they tried to rank honors programs and it is very difficult because they are so different from one another.
I can tell you that at the university that my daughter attends they don’t really have the unusual classes that blevine describes. All the honors classes are sections of regular classes. For example, my daughter is currently taking a research-intensive introductory biology class; it covers the same material as is standard for introductory college biology and adds some intensive material aimed at helping a student evaluate the quality of a research study and perform their own research. The lecture has about 30 students and the lab sections have about 14 students. The student also has the option of taking a required course that does not offer an honors section and make the regular section an “Honors Option” by completing additional study or research pertinent to the class. The third option is to take a graduate level course to fulfill Honors College requirements. The unusual courses described by Blevins are not specific to honors program and are typically offered only during the summer and open to all students. Also of note is that honors courses are open to non-honors students, with permission of the instructor.
On a side note, I will offer that it really should not just be a discussion about LAC vs. large university. I attended a large university that had an emphasis on research and was not focused on undergraduate teaching. Conversely, the large university my daughter attends is more focused on undergraduate teaching than the one I attended. Not all large universities have the same focus… Just another facet to consider when choosing a college.
i started out originally believing the “bloom where you are planted” mantra. Then CC got me to believe that prestige and perceived opportunities are the most important criteria for an eventual “good life”. Now i firmly believe quality is found everywhere if you look hard enough.
and as we head toward May 1, i’m grappling with that kid and having to weigh what exactly that elusive quality will mean for her and at what cost–and by cost i dont just mean monetary.
are the perceived opportunities truly much better at one place vs the other or do you have actually have more opportunities when you are a big fish in a little pond instead of average? once you are down from the very, very top tier of U’s, does it truly matter if somewhere is ranked 150 vs 200…outside of maybe regionally, what difference does it make to the average person? what if professor X at lowest ranked just happened to be a rockstar in the industry with tons of connections? and what if that guy knows and likes that kid and goes the extra mile for them instead of that kid just being a number in another scenario. No one has a crystal ball to predict the variables of the what ifs. the complexities of either side are astounding. we can make some educated assumptions, but for the most part the answer is that “it depends”.
my biggest takeaway now is that the answer is different for each and every kid here.
it can be discussed to death, but its virtually impossible to quantify. particularly for that kid. it means something different for each one of them. there is no one size fits all.
My kid is in one of the audition programs at NYU Tisch. There are 60 kids in her studio - 300 kids in her major, and that core stays together for 4 years. She knows everyone in her major - it is NOT an isolating experience
True. You should only choose a college that allows you to freely and regularly interact with tutors and other support staff. Some college lecture halls are too crowded that some students graduate without ever having a handshake with their lecturers. Bad idea!
Any thoughts on the non-academic side of college for a student with ADHD who can be challenged by daily life? My son is currently a HS junior. As the person he is now (recognizing/hoping he continues to mature significantly and learn to manage his ADHD by college), I can imagine him having difficulty navigating college housing registration/meal plans, course selection/registration, etc. at a large university. (Academically, he prefers a school where there is a lot of interaction in the class and where his professor will not just be accessible but also know who he is, similar to his high school learning environment.) That said, I have been leaning towards smaller colleges but have looked a few large universities with honors colleges, but I do wonder about how my forgetful, disorganized son w/ADHD would fare in the bureaucracy/anonymity of a large university system.
@MomofKZ He may look into a school with a block plan where you take one course at a time for 3 1/2 weeks, then have 4 or 5 days off, then dive into another class. The workload for that one class is intense, but there’s only one course to keep track of at a time. It’s great for the right kind of kid. YMMV
There aren’t many of these, but a few that I know of are all small LACs:
Colorado College (Colorado Springs): very selective, academically intense, expensive but might meet demonstrated need (?), about 2200 students, cool city and in the shadow of Pike’s Peak
Cornell College (in Iowa): less selective and probably much less academically intense, much less expensive than CC and lots of very good merit aid for high stats kids, about 1100 students, teeny tiny rural town
Quest University (Squamish, BC, Canada): tiny school (700 students), gorgeous looking surroundings, hard to gauge exactly the academic deal since it’s really new (founded 2002) but it seems intriguing for the right kid
Tusculum College (Tennessee): I don’t know anything about this one, but they do 2 8-week blocks per semester & appear to be less selective and have fewer fields of study than many LACs; 1500 students
Yikes, I had read the original post and maybe 1-2 after that, then hadn’t checked this thread and did not realize it went on a big school/small school discussion.
Since I have one at a major public flagship and one at a wonderful LAC – and both are thrilled and in the right place for them – to me, it all comes down to the specific student. Our flagship kid has had close, wonderful relationships with top faculty in their fields, through Honors sections and upper level seminars. At the same time, he appreciated that he could disappear into the large lecture for his gen eds or other classes when he just didn’t want to be “on.” Worked for him. In contrast, our LAC kid realized after an intensive summer program that he learned best, and really only, in a small setting. So the only schools on his list were LACs. He chose a wonderful school with classes largely capped at 25, and where most of his classes are between 18-22 students, and where mentoring is something the administrations values and supports in the faculty. He is thrilled and happy and challenged beyond his expectations. In our mind, each was fortunate to find the right place for them. Neither is better or right overall, but one can certainly better/right for a specific young person.
Some people have pointed this out, but I see a lot of generalizing on this thread.
The truth is that not all big flagship publics (or their departments) are the same nor are all elite mid-sized privates the same when it comes to emphasis on undergraduate education. The culture of a department/uni matters when it comes to caring about undergraduate teaching, weeding out, etc. For whatever reason, two departments/schools that on paper are alike in reputation/etc. may differ a lot with one caring only about research and the other about undergraduate teaching as well. And honors colleges aren’t the same everywhere either.
