^ @IBviolamom I agree with you. In many parts of the country (particularly the Midwest and South) the large schools is where they look first and second with the SEC and Big 10 schools typically the first choice being the local flagship and the second choice being an out-of-state one. The one exception is that the top students will often look seriously at local top 20 schools (Chicago, Vandy, Duke, ND and/or Northwestern) but often never look at neither the other mid-sized privates nor the local LACs. What is interesting is that you can now see this changing in the Chicago area as kids find it harder and harder to get into U of I.
When it comes to the question, do students actually carefully weigh their options, kids of cc families are hardly representational.
I believe most high schoolers just apply to schools they are familiar with. For our local students, it’s either U of ____ or _____ State U. If you asked about other options they would say it’s too expensive, they can’t get in, too far from home, maybe even “Why would I want to do that??” etc. I believe most of them do not make an informed choice. I also think for most of them it’s not a big deal.
I am pretty sure research bears this out, that’s why some of the big name schools are doing outreach just to get kids to apply who normally wouldn’t.
And yes, there’s an LAC or big U to fit anyone’s parameters.
And ultimately, none of it makes a lot of difference! We on cc go round and round on tiny details, and yes I made a spreadsheet and spent many hours helping my D find the “right” school, but most likely if she had had to attend our local cc she would have done OK. I believe my own life trajectory might have been different if my college plans had worked out better, but there’s no way to tell. I just tried to give my kids the best that was possible and so far it’s working.
That was exactly my thought when I read the challenge. The consortium colleges boast about being a small college with all the advantages of a large university- sports, course offerings, research opportunities. All the 3-2 engineering schools go on and on about how you’ll have both the small experience and the big experience.
Of course the big schools try to make themselves attractive to the LAC seeker by promoting freshmen interest group dorms, honors colleges, small clubs, major priority registration, etc.
I don’t think it really matters how big the school is, but do think it matters how small the school is. A consortium school might have worked for my daughter, but not a 1200 student school in a rural setting. I know a lot of kids who have transferred from small LACs to the 25k+ flagship ( ex., Reed, Washington College(Md), Rollins, Portland, to CU) because they were unhappy with the smaller schools, but I don’t know any kids who transferred from a large school to a small LAC. Not one.
My older son always says that college is what you make it. He thought he wanted a small university, but he ended up at a big OOS university on scholarship. He never had a class with more than 40 students. He got plenty of attention from his professors, because he took it upon himself to go to office hours, participate in class discussions and get involved in the daily life of the school. He has done the same thing in law school. That “get involved” mentality is something that his kid brother has done at his medium-sized, OOS university.
There are lots of options for college. Tour a variety of schools so you can get a feel of what is offered.
Actually, it makes sense that transfers go from small to large more than large to small.
Small schools’ advantages are greatest at the frosh/soph level, while large schools’ advantages are greatest at the junior/senior level. Small to large maximizes advantages of each size school while minimizing disadvantages. Large to small maximizes disadvantages of each size school while minimizing advantages.
Emory even has both parts in their own system, for those that choose it (smaller Oxford College at a different location for freshmen & sophs).
Interesting statistic from https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2015/07/08/more-third-college-students-transfer:
Re: #166
Here is the NSC report that provides more detail than the inadequate IHE summary:
https://nscresearchcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/SignatureReport9.pdf
Figure 6 shows the origin and destination of transfer students. For students who transferred from 4-year public schools, 13.2% took just summer courses at 2-year public schools (“summer swirlers”), while 38.1% transferred to 2-year public schools (not just for the summer). For students who transferred from 4-year private non-profit schools, 12.4% were “summer swirlers” to 2-year public schools and 30.3% were other transfers to 2-year public schools.
Perhaps this pattern is not too surprising. If a frosh at a 4-year school decides that this particular 4-year school is not the right one (for whatever reason, probably often cost), but it is too late to send transfer applications, or transfer applications did not yield any affordable desirable admissions, the obvious “safety” plan is to return home, attend a local 2-year school, and then try again to transfer in the coming year.
It does indeed. All the Emory professors I know (an anecdotal amount) sent their kids to Oxford.
What do you do when you have a kid who thinks they want a big school, because they want a vibrant social scene and big, beautiful sorority houses that they see in the movies and by googling, and you and your husband both think your kid woud be better off at a smaller school based on everything you know about her? I always thought she would be the perfect student for a small LAC, but she now has it in her head that they are boring, deserted and lack excitement. She loves personal attention from teachers and absolutely loves discussion based classes. Anyone else think they know what’s best for their child and then the child has something else in mind?
@citymama9 There are LACs that meet your D’s criteria, e.g. Wash & Lee. Otherwise, an honors program at a flagship would fit as well. Has she visited different types of schools and sat in on classes?
@citymama9 There are also tons of small colleges that are either big LACs with sports and frats (eg, U Richmond) or small universities (eg, Wake Forest - 4,800 UG, Tufts 5,200 UG, American U, 7,900) that have many of the attributes of larger schools (sports, frats, etc) and are in urban areas so don’t have the isolated feel of the New England or Midwest LAC.
@citymama9 Yup, that would be us, with eldest. We thought he was a LAC kid, but he wanted big. He dutifully toured some LACs and liked, but not loved them. Stepped onto campus at the public flagship he now attends and announced, that was where he was going. He has had plenty of small seminar classes, took advantage of Honors discussion sections in his lecture classes, which were led by professor rather than a TA (he also had great TAs), and has thrived. We came to realize, he wanted the ability to be anonymous sometimes and to have a wider range and number of students among which to create his social group. The incredible depth of the academic offerings in his areas of interest has been a huge bonus. My younger one, at a LAC, has classes ranging from 17-25 students – which is what he knew he wanted. At the same time, he has already discovered how incestuous a small campus can seem (those mistakes early in freshman year can take a while to fade in student memory when it is a small school).
Long way of saying – as well as know our kids, sometimes, their preferences for large/small reflects something which they may not be able to articulate, but which is just as real to them as their interest in particular subject matter areas etc. Don’t discount the personal touch available at many large institutions.
My daughter did an overnight visit at a top LAC in the mid-west that was somewhat rural. She was paired with a host student with similar interests and they arranged a meeting with a professor in her major to discuss research opportunities. Greek life is very prominent there as there is not much else to do socially because of the school’s rural location. Even though the students are very bright, the school does have a work hard, play hard reputation and there seems to be a lot of drinking at the Greek parties. My daughter went to a few frat parties with her host and she said it was OK. She noted she would be restricted to socializing with a very small group of students and wanted an opportunity to have a larger circle of friends. Also of note was that she felt that the student body was somewhat homogeneous and she wanted to experience greater diversity in her friends group. However, she really liked her host, the classes she attended and the professor she met with.
Overall, her visit to the LAC confirmed for her that she preferred a large university- for the reasons that Midwestmomofboys sums up very well in her post.
@itsgettingreal17 As a matter of fact she’s off this week and we’re going to see a small, medium and large sized school (Dickinson, Bucknell and Penn State). She’s only a Soph so it’s kind of early to sit in on classes, but next yr for sure.
@londondad That’s exactly what I’m thinking: medium sized schools like Wake Forest might be a good compromise. She said she definitey doesn’t want an urban school
@Midwesternmomofboys Very helpful. The smaller school is Denison, right? That is kind of the school I thought would be perfect for her, but you make good points
@momofsmartdancer Good points. I think the overnights during senior year will be very important
@citymama9 Great. My daughter really liked Wake Forest. We just decided to visit at the last minute as it fit in well with our tour of Southern schools and she liked it much more than she initially thought she would.
@citymama9 My son was willing to do the quick 30-question Fiske Guide to Colleges Self-Quiz http://www.fiskeguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/quiz.pdf. It helped him realize that he might be happier at a smaller school. Prior to that, he’d been thinking large schools. We also toured schools of different sizes and locations. (Small schools located in urban environments offer more opportunities and excitement than those in rural areas.)
@MomofKZ Thanks so much! I’m going to have my D take that quiz
@itsgettingreal17 Agree 100%. When I was in high school many moons ago, I visited Amherst, Williams, Wesleyan and Bowdoin along with larger research universities. There was no way I could see myself at a small LAC. I went to a large Ivy League university and had many courses with fewer than 20 students. I also got to take classes in the government and public health schools, which wouldn’t have been possible elsewhere. I never felt “lost”.
My D. and niece both felt the same way. We pulled into Amherst and my D. said, “no. Let’s go”. We visited Pomona and she thought it was nice but was much more attracted to UC Berkeley (she liked the vibe and huge diversity and range of facilities). She settled on Columbia. My niece settled on the University of Chicago. Both liked being part of a “liberal arts college” within a major research university and couldn’t be happier.
@JaxBlueman The lack of graduate students is a major drawback with LACs. There are huge advantages in being able to take graduate courses with graduate students. You don’t compete with them. The faculty know who are graduate students and who aren’t.
If you look at the course catalog at Harvard, Columbia, Penn, UVa or UC Berkeley, the breadth and range of courses is staggering. And at most of the major research universities, you can cross-register into the business, public health, government or law schools when you are a senior. It is an unparalleled experience.