<p>More off topic comments: My extended family is musical. My parents met in college choir. My mom started out as a voice major. Her uncle was Juilliard grad (grad school only, back then). My mother’s comment, when my S started winning competitions and getting attention, “Is he really that good, or is it just that nobody plays that instrument?”</p>
<p>In all fairness, she is incredibly proud of him now, and you would think it was all her idea.</p>
<p>I have to say that I consider myself lucky to have the guidance counselor that I did. He, like many other guidance counselors, made sure that I knew all of my other options ouside of music. He repeatedly stressed how bright I was and that there were many things that I could do with my life. And I was one of those kids who took 4+ years of math, science, and almost every other subject. There were scheduling conflicts, and as a result I never took chorus or music theory. On the other hand, he did arrange for me to do an independent study of music theory with the school’s teacher and there were some acadmic classes that I never got to take because I was in band, but never once did he ask me to give up band for a semester. Of course, he didn’t know everyting about every music school under the sun, no one does, but he knew which ones I should be looking into, and was a firm supporter of SUNY Potsdam (the school I will be attending in the fall).</p>
<p>The one thing that I will always remember that he did for me, which I think went above and beyond what most counselors would have done is how he was there for me after I received all of my acceptances and was trying to make a decision. I was pretty much torn between attending Potsdam on a decent scholarship or Eastman, on some scholarship, but still aquiring a huge amount of debt. I talked to him on a Friday, and then he called me back down on Monday. Over the weekend he had spoken to a member of the USMA band, and explained to him my situation. Helistened to what the musician had to say and then sat down and told me. Hediscussed how much the military would pay of my debt if I did get into the bands. And while I could definitely get into the field bands he knew that wasn’t the life I really wanted. I either wanted to teach or be in a premier band, which was not a guarenteed job. He also knew that I would want to pursue graduate work, and told me that it might be in something other than music if I change my mind. Grad. school can be expensive too, and I didn’t want to enter already having a large amount of debt. He spoke with me about how I felt about the teachers at the two schools. He was really there for me.</p>
<p>I know I rambled on, but I wanted to let people know that there are good guidance counselors out there. Yes, he wasn’t 100% behind music, but we all know how hard it is to make it in music, and he was only encouraging me to keep my options open. As a result, I consider myself lucky to be well rounded in all subjects, I receivd the majority of my scholarships for my grades, and a smaller amount for music. My guidance counselor knew that my music teachers would prepare me for the music aspects of applying to college and he took care of the rest. I applied to both music schools and non-music schools and was forutnate to have many options. I have no regrets about not focusing more on my schoolwork than on music. I got scholarships to all the music schools I applied to. And if I should one day decide that music is not for me, at least I have a solid foundation in other areas to back me up.</p>
<p>i’ve honestly never worried about “not making it” or deciding that “music is not for me”. I honestly don’t see the difference between an unemployed music major and an unemployed English major. It isn’t like there are high paying jobs for Sociology or Psychology or Anthropology majors,a nd it is always curious to me that no one is dissauding kids from pursuing those areas of interest (how many Margaret Meads can there be?).</p>
<p>If our music grads can’t get performing jobs, I am certain there are other avenues to explore, if they have the drive, determination, and people skills. I know adults, including guidance counselors, are just trying to do their job in pointing out the pitfalls of a potential music career, but really, I don’t see the degree as any more limiting than most liberal arts degrees.</p>
<p>My son attended Interlochen Arts Academy for senior year, where the college counselors know music school admissions inside out. Our funny story is about son’s junior year chem teacher who was very strict about class attendance. As you all know, musicians miss alot of school for auditions, competitions, All-State performances, etc. After about the 3rd or 4th time my son told chem teacher he would be missing class due to a music committment, teacher replied very loudly and sarcastically in front of entire class “Do you want to be a rock and roll star when you grow up?” No disrespect for rock stars intended by me, but teacher obviously didn’t see much redeming value. </p>
<p>Son kept his cool, continued to miss class when needed, and his grade suffered the consequences of pop quizzes. Son ran into chem teacher over spring break and he asked what S was doing now. He replied that he was a first-year at University of Rochester (Eastman School of Music would have been wasted on this guy). Teacher actually said “Wow! I wouldn’t have thought you’d get accepted there”. Not only accepted, but taking liberal arts courses at River (main) Campus, and made Dean’s List.</p>
<p>I work as a public middle school counselor. I think that many of you are really expecting your high school counselors in terms of knowledge of different colleges, programs, requirements etc. The average public high school counselor has a caseload of 300 students. These kids are all over the map in terms of interests, abilities, family support, etc. Some of the kids on the caseload will be fortunate to graduate, others are looking at ivy caliber schools. Guidance counselors are there to guide, not do research for you. If I was working as a high school counselor, I would do very well helping kids select schools for music performance, but wouldn’t do very well in helping kids who wanted to be artists or dancers. And the fact is that students with the ability to get into the highest level programs in these fields are few and far between. And if you haven’t immersed yourself in this area like we parents have, then you really don’t have an idea of what it is all about.</p>
<p>Our counselor admitted up front that we were going to be on our own in terms of choosing schools schools for music performance. She never tried to talk him out of it and said she would support him in any way she could. When we had a question about him discontinuing math after pre-calculus but still wanting to know if that would be OK with Rice, she called admissions and asked them. When he wanted more time to prep for his auditions, she helped him design a schedule first semester senior year that allowed him to stay home until 11:15 each day. </p>
<p>I think your best approach is to meet with the counselor and discuss your plans. Let them know that you understand this is an area that they likely have little knowledge of and that is OK. Find out all the deadlines and how they deal with getting all the info in. My guess is that if you approach it this way, you will find many counselors to be more than willing to work with you.</p>
<p>Before my D met with her GC (full time position with a case load of only 50 students in a graduating class of 147)we first sent her a package that included everything from a CD of a
recital, programs from professional gigs (Los Angeles Opera and LA Phil), lists of awards and even a brief outline on how admissions function at conservatories. We did this so that she could effectively understand how she could and could not help us. There are good counselors and bad. We just had a REALLY bad one.</p>
<p>shennie, this is exactly the reason the college counselor agreed to meet w/ us earlier than most incoming Jr’s., knowing ours was a complex situation compared to most. We were most thankful to have the jump on the research and his consideration.</p>
<p>Also realize that most garden variety counselors are not aware of how a BM differs from a BA in music. They don’t have knowledge of the complexities of auditioning and the idea choosing a teacher rather than a school or a program. Applying for music performance is much more similar to applying to graduate school than it is to applying for college. Yes, there are some really bad counselors out there, but most want to help and don’t understand that they are not really qualified to do much to help you.</p>
<p>I agree shennie and didn’t start this thread as a slam on HS GCs. There’s nothing wrong with a counselor who admits they aren’t well-versed in this process and then back away. It’s the ones who are clueless and won’t admit it, and then go about using the “normal” techniques that cause far more damage.</p>
<p>The best “Stupid HS GC Tricks” come from that group that treads where they shouldn’t…</p>
<p>Just an FYI…the GC who gave DS dreadful advice also gave regular college students bad advice. She was just a clunker. Thankfully they changed letters of the alphabet before DD became a HS student. I seriously think it’s because of ME. When the GC saw that I had a younger sib, she said “please…give me ANY other section of the alphabet.” And the good news is that DD’s GC was wonderful…very responsive, admitted what he could and couldn’t help with, and just was great. Of course, DD was not applying to music programs:)</p>
<p>ABlestMom- It was fairly obvious that there was a tremendous talent (and potentially a life) about to be wasted. His foster parents did not provide transportation to lessons, high school or youth orchestra, nor did they attend any of his concerts or competitions, including his wins. When we intially queried him about his after high school plans, he effectively had none. The assigned social worker met with him once a month, and while he had been given the options he had available, he never had them fully explained to him. He had no idea he could go to any college in the state (public or private) and the state would pay his way provided he followed the mandated guidelines.
The social worker was marginially aware of his musical interest and talent.
He got no guidance from the school or his foster family, and was in all probability going to take classes at the local community college and hold some menial job.</p>
<p>To make a long story short, he developed a severe case of shoulder tendonitis his freshman year; he had to take a medical leave. The state would not pay for NYC music therapy specialists, so he ended up with decent local care, took a year off and reapplied at Suny Purchase, but found playing daily too painful. </p>
<p>He dropped out, and now has a small engine plane pilot’s license and is working towards jet certification. He still plays local gigs for weddings, church services, corporate and charity functions, and is an accomplished chamber musician. And I still go out of my way to hear him play.</p>
<p>Shennie: “Also realize that most garden variety counselors are not aware of how a BM differs from a BA in music. They don’t have knowledge of the complexities of auditioning and the idea choosing a teacher rather than a school or a program. Applying for music performance is much more similar to applying to graduate school than it is to applying for college. Yes, there are some really bad counselors out there, but most want to help and don’t understand that they are not really qualified to do much to help you.”</p>
<p>In some ways, I’m a bit fortunate that we didn’t have a guidance counselor to feel dependent upon, I guess. Being homeschoolers, I have been the GC for both of my children who have been through college admissions. And my source of help has been the internet discussion lists for parents in my situation. That’s how I found CC and learned from you all that the teacher is hugely important. Without hearing about the importance of the principal applied teacher, we would probably have made a different program choice which may or may not have turned out all right. Of course, she isn’t on campus yet, so we’ll see how things go in the fall!</p>
<p>But I’ve been long aware that most GCs have huge numbers of students and can’t really give individualized college counseling. I think the most helpful GCs should be extremely well aware of the major sources of information on college selection issues for a variety of majors. I see the GC as a facilitator of the college search, helping to steer a student to the right places to begin the research and hopefully having enough background to know how to help a student think through issues as they come up. I personally think that relative to music students, a GC SHOULD be familiar enough with the issues involved in music admissions to know general information such as the importance of having a good private teacher in high school, understanding audition requirements and how to find that information, the possibilities for setting up trial lessons, the general timeline for the music admission process. He/she should at least know these are issues, and although shouldn’t have to be a walking encyclopediae of information on each specific school, should know how to direct students to good sources of more information. How hard would it be for a guidance office to have folders for the most common majors with information sheets. A music information folder could have a list of the most commonly considered elite conservatories and schools in their own state that have significant music programs. It could have a list of websites and books that have information for prospective music majors and another list of “tips” for the potential music major. The other school personnel who could keep such a folder of info would be the band and orchestra directors. </p>
<p>That’s my 2 cents for the night.</p>
<p>Just so you know, I did all the college research for both my kids and neither was pursuing a BM. I am good at research and didn’t trust our counselor with this job. Music teachers were not helpful either. One who was Juilliard trained had not had a good experience (even though he played w/very famous musician at 13) and the other went to North Carolina School of the Arts and didn’t really understand the academic stimulation S. needed. It was my idea to push his Composition (which he now loves) and was lucky enoygh to have Curtis faculty members playing first movement of string quartet from a summer program.</p>
<p>I didn’t discuss college search w/counselor. I also directed college search for four other young people. But I also do most tasks for myself and enjoy this. The gudance counselors didn’t seem to know much, but they were wholly on our side.</p>
<p>violadad: What happened to the other friend in your scenario, the one withthe bad audition?</p>
<p>What a shame!!! I’m so glad music is still part of his life, even if it’s in a small way. Without the help of you parents, he wouldn’t even have that.</p>
<p>I think the biggest problem non-music GC’s face is that they are completely unable to make any sort of evaluation about talent. Therefore, it is very hard for them to steer a music student one way or another. My S has several classmates who also wanted to be music majors, who did not have the ability nor the practice habits. There was no way the GC could distinguish among them. Our HS has a great music program, and a lot more students wanting to major in music than should. The GC’s approach seems to be to do whatever paperwork they are asked to do, and to make sure each student has a post-HS plan. But they do not offer any “guidance” in helping any student decide anything. </p>
<p>This year there seemed to be a new GC who’s job was apparently something to do with helping students decide careers. It frustrated my D no end that she was continually required to give up “study hall” time to take computerized career assessment tests long after she had applied and been admitted to colleges, and when she actually needed the time to study. Especially when she got responses like: Priest. (Wrong gender and religion.)</p>
<p>I would dearly love to be able to offer my knowledge to the HS, to help other music students. Much like BassDad did. But our school has a “not invented here” problem.</p>
<p>What I did was not through the school itself but rather the PTA. Every year our PTA runs a college night with speakers that include admission staff from one or two colleges and several parents who have been through the college admissions process within the past few years. They try to cover several different scenarios including a top academic school, a couple of more average ones, a recruited athlete, a music or music theater program and some other pre-professional program. There are five or six 10-to-15-minute presentations followed by a panel session taking questions from the attendees for as long as anyone wants to hang around. They pitch it toward the juniors and seniors and their parents, but also get the occasional sophomore as well as some GC’s and teachers. If the school is not interested in doing something like this and you have an active PTA, you might suggest they try something similar and volunteer to be one of the parents on the panel.</p>
<p>This has been very enlightening hearing how other music kids received similar mishandlings to the one given my son in the GC’s office. I know she meant well, but she was grossly underinformed. I still stand by my decision not to make him re-take SAT’s, against guidance’s advice, when he got so stressed out by the first ones! I plan on handing on all I have learned in the last year, and will learn in the upcoming year of auditions and applications to our guidance department, so they will be a little more experienced when the next kid who really wants a conservatory education comes along.</p>
<p>mythmom- Friend “B”'s Hartt audition was the only one he fell flat on. I can’t recall what other schools he applied to, but I do know that he graduated this May from NYU with a degree in music ed (string concentration). I’d have to reverify this with my son, but I’m pretty sure he accepted a job to teach in NY public schools.</p>
<p>Fiddlemom writes:
"I personally think that relative to music students, a GC SHOULD be familiar enough with the issues involved in music admissions to know general information such as the importance of having a good private teacher in high school, understanding audition requirements and how to find that information, the possibilities for setting up trial lessons, the general timeline for the music admission process. He/she should at least know these are issues, and although shouldn’t have to be a walking encyclopediae of information on each specific school, should know how to direct students to good sources of more information.</p>
<p>This would be great if it could happen. The problem is, most counselors don’t deal with performance majors very often so they don’t understand the issues. My kids attended a large urban high school that graduates about 500 students a year. There are only a few who pursue audition based majors each year, and they are likely assiged to different counselors. </p>
<p>Much of what high school counselors do is learned on the job, not in grad school. Therefore, unless you work with students on a fairly regular basis who want to pursue audition based admissions you aren’t going to know a whole lot about them and, as pointed out by many members of this group, are likely to have many misconceptions. Also, in terms of having a list of schools to look at, the list really does vary quite a bit between instruments. Someone who wants to pursue trumpet is likely to need to look at some different schools than someone pursuing viola. And as pointed out above, counselors can’t even begin to assess talent and the likelihood of a student being successful in the audition process.</p>
<p>I am guessing that some counselors respond the same way to students who want to pursue music in much the same way as they respond to students who state they want to be professional athletes. Many counselors find themselves torn between encouraging students to follow their dreams and being realistic. I don’t really know where that balance lies. It is nice to say that the parents should be the arbitors, but we also know parents who have unrealistic aspirations for their children. At what point does someone sit down and have a heart to heart with a child / parent indicating that the goal is unrealistic? And should that person be the counselor? I don’t have the answer to the questions, only opening it up for further discussion.</p>