To (All) the Colleges That Rejected Me

Parents Forum
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<p>The oversupply only worsened this tendency. The other key factor is that for the most lucrative or most prestigious employment…whether corporate biglaw, clerking for a Federal judge, or working in a non-profit like the ACLU…one’s law school pedigree matters a great deal. </p>

<p>What’s more ironic from hearing from law school alum friends and colleagues in biglaw firms is that the public service law…whether for Federal agencies or non-profits like the ACLU are even more sticklers on top grades AND law school pedigree than corporate biglaw firms in major urban areas like NYC, Washington D.C., LA, etc. </p>

<p>Another thing to think about is that one major reason why so many law school students gun for biglaw jobs is not necessarily because they are prestige/materialistically oriented…but because law school loan debt* compels them in that direction. </p>

<p>If you don’t end up getting the $160k starting salary as a biglaw associate or prospects of a greater starting one after doing a Federal clerkship for a few years, one could end up like a friend who has a lawyer job paying in the neighborhood of $30k with half a million in law school and two years of undergrad debt hanging over his head. </p>

<p>Did I mention he’s considered one of the lucky ones from his law school class considering most of his classmates didn’t get jobs because they graduated right into the 2008 recession and had competition from higher ranking neighboring law school grads? </p>

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<li>Average of $200k+ from a private, $100-150k from a decent public.</li>
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<p>GFG:

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<p>I’m still looking for it. Haven’t found it yet. Not the “some.” Not the “all.” I must be dense.</p>

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<p>Nor am I sure of those ^. However, I think what many would say (I, Pizzagirl, perhaps others) is that it’s difficult to arrange a Pity Party for those who limit their college applications to the high-profile 8+2 schools. Or, I might pity a student who had no guidance, but to date I have failed to find a single well-off student in all my years of education, with a variety of income groups, who had “no guidance.” They had guidance, often contradictory to what their parents’ gave them, if those parents “insisted” on 8+2. And often the parents had quality guidance, too: through the school’s guidance office, which by no means told them that non-Ivy grads are sentenced to poverty. And sometimes they had professional independent counselors tell them the same thing. Yet, they chose to ignore it, because life for them is a lottery: might as well throw everything you have into it.</p>

<p>So my reasoning is quite consistent. If, for example, a skilled worker chose, yes chose, to gamble everything he had on a lottery ticket (megamillions, powerball, whatever), as opposed to leveraging skills + education toward better opportunities with realistic financial returns, I would feel a degree of pity, but very little sympathy. </p>

<p>Back to students: those with truly no guidance tend not to be upper-middle-class students (including from publics) but very lower-class students, from publics with precious little college ocunseling, and parents who never made that journey, nor would be able to navigate it if their lives depended on it.</p>

<p>Sorry, but it’s willlful self-delusion. This year over 94% of Harvard applicants were denied admission, and it’s been reaching that percentage consistently for quite some time. If you can read a USNWR, you can read the historical stats for the Ivies.</p>

<p>And no, there is nothing wrong with seeking an Elite “name.” Nothing. Everyone’s entitled to seek. No one’s entitled to receive. And the responsibility continues to lie with adults to direct students as to Admissions Facts of Life, so that even a modestly capable and ambitious student has an excellent 4-year-college as a relatively sure prospect in September. The failure in priority-setting is with regard to adults, with regard to the college list, with regard to realistic options. If your priorities are only Elites, then your reasoning is irrational and irresponsible.</p>

<p>I realize we’ve gone far afield of the OP, but I tend to call people out when insinuations are made which i.m.o. have no basis. ?</p>

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<p>For me it’s not top 5 or bust at all.
It’s top5 or go to the great state school that gives you full-ride.
If it’s all up to me, it would be turn down top5 and go to the great state school that gives you full-ride.</p>

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<p>I hear and understand you, PG, as you’ve made the same points many, many times on CC. However, you greatly exaggerate the position of those who eagerly seek admission to top schools, and then mock those exaggerations. Where in the article did Suzy Lee suggest that now she’d be doomed to a life of want-fries-with-that or certain poverty after having been rejected from her reach schools? Where did I say anything like that, given that I admit to coming closer to that position than most other posters on CC? </p>

<p>What I recall saying in other threads is that this is about risk management. There are no guarantees of career success no matter what field you major in or where you attend school. But all other things being equal, a student probably has a great likelihood of getting a well-paying job after graduation with an elite school bachelor’s degree than with a non-elite bachelor’s degree. I’ve also offered anecdotes about the job results of S and his Ivy friends, versus S’s high school friends who attended the local state schools. Hands down, the elite school grads have had more success finding jobs in their field. I also recall discussing the disparity between what S earns only a few years out of school versus what his father and other professionals with a non-elite degree earn after 25 or 30 years. Last, but not least, I’ve discussed the particular benefit of the pedigree and networking advantages from a top school for middle class kids with no connections. None of that speaks of doom and gloom in the event of failure.</p>

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<p>Who on this thread is recommending limiting applications to all elite schools, or 8 elite schools+2? Do we know that Suzy did that? Again, you are setting up an extreme claim and then stating how ridiculous it is. Clearly Suzy’s list included at least one match, and a nice school at that. Wanting badly to get into an elite school and feeling disappointed you didn’t, doesn’t imply all the rest of the baggage you are arguing against, such as unwisely limiting one’s list or fearing career doom.</p>

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<p>Sorry, got to take a break for a while and do some work, so can’t list all the relevant posts with insults. But PG’s post 149 is one example of “provincial people bashing” (her words, not mine)–the bashing of those who lack smarts and sophistication as evidenced by getting hung up on a mere handful of schools.</p>

<p>Really wanting to go to that handful of top schools is just really wanting to go them. The expression “hung up” implies a mild psychological imbalance.</p>

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<p>I agree. And for anyone whose family income is below $60k/year, these schools are cheaper than the nearby state university and often even the local community college. For such families, there is really no downside if one can get accepted.</p>

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<p>“And for anyone whose family income is below $60k/year, these schools are cheaper than the state university nearby and often even the local community college”</p>

<p>If this were not the case, a lot of people would not even be applying. In fact it is comparable at some of the schools for incomes under 150k.</p>

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<p>Why so? Why should kids aiming high be required to articulate reasons that meet with the approval of CC Parents’ Standard Theory of Correct Thinking?</p>

<p>It seems to me that kids need to justify wanting to attend an elite college for only two constituencies:</p>

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<li><p>Their parents in the event their parents are going to pay for it and especially if they are going to go into debt for it.</p></li>
<li><p>The elite school itself if it’s one of those that asks the “Why do you want to attend here?” question on the app.</p></li>
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<p>For the rest of us, including everyone on CC, the kid doesn’t need to articulate a reason any better than “Because I want to.” The world is not owed an explanation for every personal decision someone chooses to make about his/her future.</p>

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<p>I don’t think anybody would dispute the advantages of attending an elite university. I wish to this day I had attended one, but I didn’t get in and attended a couple perfectly fine state schools. All things being equal I’m sure it’s easier to get a job out of Harvard. Personally, I suspect there are a lot of other intangible benefits to attending an elite school as well, including the student body. And there are a lot of silly posts where people claim there is absolutely no benefit to attending Princeton over community college, or something close, or that it is never worth the money under any circumstances. That’s dumb. And we all know in many cases it is cheaper. </p>

<p>But there are also a lot of instances on this website where people overstate the downside if you don’t attend one of these schools. It doesn’t just come up randomly. Typically it comes up in all those threads where, under a specific financial situation, a student asks if it would be okay to attend a lower ranked school on a full ride (due to merit money or whatever) over an elite school where the parents will be full pay. If anyone dares to suggest that maybe it isn’t worth the money, folks come out of the woodwork to pound all the calamities of non-attendance into their head. And it is in these threads where there are frequent suggestions that finding a job will be near to impossible without the elite pedigree. Maybe it will be a little more difficult, maybe not. But not impossible.</p>

<p>That’s when I usually bring up my anecdote about how we’ve hired around 30 engineers in the past two years, almost all from UCs and Cal States. And how they come in around 65K, and should get up to 100K in a few years, 135K if they get a license and a bump. Not Google money I guess, but you can certainly survive. Of course that’s just an anecdote, but if nobody but Ivy grads could get work our UE rate would be over 76%, not 7.6%.</p>

<p>So I guess what I’m saying is there’s a lot of hyperbole on both sides, IMHO.</p>

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<p>So show me the evidence. My “elite bachelor’s degree” has gotten me exactly NOTHING in terms of salary/prestige/etc. over more than 25 years in my career. (I have a great job now, and have had others, but my success has had NOTHING to do with my pedigree. In fact, there have been many times when I wished I had the state flagship or other “known” local school on my resume.) Meanwhile, my younger sister, who works in the exact same field in another state, is far more successful even with her “lite” degree from a no-name directional/commuter school. </p>

<p>I can offer other anecdotes, too, since you are. The visionary leaders of the organizations I have worked for over the past few decades did not get their degrees from Ivies but rather from the following institutions: Bradley University. University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire. Slippery Rock University. Aurora College. Heck, one highly successful CEO I worked for didn’t even go to college but was a HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL COACH before going into management.</p>

<p>The thing is: everyone KNOWS it is true that the world does not revolve around HYPSM graduates. So why the blind allegiance?</p>

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<p>bovertine,
I am 100% with you. I attended 2 flagship schools, then HYP for internship/residency/ then assoc prof. Even years later, I was called HYP by manager. whether it was that pedigree, or the 2 books, numerous articles, teaching at a terrific women’s college, the background made a fertile field,and was often mentioned.</p>

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<p>Depends on the field and the company/hiring manager. </p>

<p>It’s certainly not the case in engineering/CS oriented tech companies where someone from stronger engineering/CS programs such as ones at Berkeley, UMich, UW-Seattle, or UIUC will often be preferred over the Harvard or most other Ivies’ engineering/CS grads. </p>

<p>Only exceptions I’ve heard from the ones doing hiring are Princeton, Cornell, and sometimes Columbia SEAS. </p>

<p>Even outside the engineering/CS fields, there are some companies/hiring managers who will make it a point to hold the Harvard or other Ivy/bigname elite college against an applicant and not hire them or give them the “third degree” during the interview process because of preconceived negative stereotypes associated with the Ivys/elite colleges.</p>

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<p>Just talking with my S tonight as well as my D. Both are extraordinarily talented and both struggle with self discipline. My S is struggling in a class, the second part to a class he struggled with last semester. He took none of my advice and guidance to start with a tutor, etc and now here we are again hoping he can “make it through” this class.</p>

<p>Self discipline, ambition, work ethic, integrity and personality count for much more than talent and pedigree. But…throw talent and pedigree in with these other traits and its a powerful combination.</p>

<p>The girl who penned the letter this thread is about wrote out of frustration and ignorance. She needs to be over it all. </p>

<p>As far as her jab at diversity - she assumes she was a superior candidate that got edged out by diversity. She could easily be wrong. My D brings diversity but has a much higher weighted GPA than she did and more than a 100 points higher score on the SAT and without a lot of natural advantages of wealth and tiger parenting, managed to lead some huge projects, create an organization helping young people and winning state and national speech competitions among other things. </p>

<p>As far as her griping about the disadvantage of having the parents she had, she should shut up. She sounded so stupid there and yes, maybe she should go to A third world country if only to learn how blessed she really is.</p>

<p>I’m incensed that this got so much media attention.</p>

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<p>It appears that if you live in the Northeast, pedigree is more important than GOD. </p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that is a very big country. Most of the US doesn’t give a flip what the people in the Northeast think. I know, Wall Street, Goldman Sachs, etc., seem like they rule the world, but in reality, no.</p>

<p>The reality is that there are many areas where business is thriving, and the people who are movers and shakers in these many hotbeds are the products of their state schools: their flagships, of course, but also of their “secondary” state schools. People don’t disregard a graduate of an elite school, but they aren’t necessarily looking for them or recruiting them. They are hiring from the pool who are largely from that region. The Harvard grads aren’t generally flocking to these regions to work and live even though there is money to made there.</p>

<p>I live in Texas. We know many “successful” individuals. Some are making SERIOUS money, as in millions upon millions. Very few come from the IVY leagues or even the top 20 nationally. They are the products of local state institutions and regional privates. The ones who “make it” are for the most part intelligent, driven individuals who have a very strong work ethic. Some have family money, most do not. Many of them are well read, educated people. They may have a family tradition of attending certain regional (usually public) universities. The Ivies and their ilk are respected, but not worshiped. And someone who went to UT, A & M, Texas Tech, Baylor, or SMU is not going to be automatically rejected in favor of someone who comes in with a degree from Brown or Cornell. Sorry to disappoint, but not happening. </p>

<p>This always seems to shock the Elite school lovers, and they seem to have trouble really understanding or believing that there are actually intelligent, well educated, incredibly successful people who are making happy, wonderful lives for themselves without having attended some short list of 20 or so “elite” colleges. </p>

<p>The top schools are amazing institutions. However, they aren’t even remotely the only avenue to happiness and success.</p>

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<p>Coureur - just to be clear, I did mean “be able to articulate to the college, if the college so desires in an essay” (your #2). I completely agree with you that the kid doesn’t owe any explanation to the world at large.</p>

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<p>"I live in Texas. We know many “successful” individuals. Some are making SERIOUS money, as in millions upon millions. Very few come from the IVY leagues or even the top 20 nationally. They are the products of local state institutions and regional privates. The ones who “make it” are for the most part intelligent, driven individuals who have a very strong work ethic. Some have family money, most do not. Many of them are well read, educated people. They may have a family tradition of attending certain regional (usually public) universities. The Ivies and their ilk are respected, but not worshiped. And someone who went to UT, A & M, Texas Tech, Baylor, or SMU is not going to be automatically rejected in favor of someone who comes in with a degree from Brown or Cornell. Sorry to disappoint, but not happening. </p>

<p>This always seems to shock the Elite school lovers, and they seem to have trouble really understanding or believing that there are actually intelligent, well educated, incredibly successful people who are making happy, wonderful lives for themselves without having attended some short list of 20 or so “elite” colleges. "</p>

<p>EXACTLY. Perfectly said. </p>

<p>And when you come across upper middle class, well educated parents who live in Short Hills and so forth and fancy themselves sophisticated, yet they don’t get this? It’s kind of shocking. These are the parents of the classmates of my daughter at her fancy LAC who thought that because she was from suburban Chicago, her house was in the middle of cornfields and suburban Boston must have been like no place she’d ever seen! And these are the parents who produce the kids on CC who argue about the merits of schools ranked two points apart in USNWR!</p>

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<p>Gotta ask - do you grow any corn PG?</p>

<p>We had CEO of Marathon Oil come give us a talk one time as part of a business strategy class. Guy was cracking jokes about A&M and UT mascots and making fun of UT indirectly since he had gone to A&M. I looked up the current CEO and he went to LSU.</p>

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<p>Ha ha! Well done.</p>

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<p>Yes. And what’s worse is that, even though we live in “flyover country” where people should know better, they still prep and preen and push their kids to get into these colleges. (These are the parents the rest of us secretly roll our eyes at in parent meetings at the high school, because they are so obnoxious.) Unfortunately, more often than not, it seems, their children don’t like the “elite” schools when they get there, and transfer back to our hometown state flagship by sophomore or junior year.</p>