<p>I rest my case.</p>
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<p>I agree with Poetgrl. ;)</p>
<p>Re #782</p>
<p>Again, this is what you wrote:</p>
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<p>My point is that “Elite [why the cap?] school lovers” do not live in a vacuum. They are perfectly well aware that there “are actually intelligent, well educated, incredibly successful people” who did not attend a top 20 college. It would be hard to live anywhere in the US and not realize that. They know full well that someone from Brown or Cornell may be rejected in favor of someone from UT or Texas A&M–especially for a job in Texas. To say that the “Elite school lovers” --just the phrase you use reveals your bias–are shocked by this is just utter and complete nonsense. </p>
<p>This is especially true of people who grew up in places like Texas. Do you really think that kids who graduate from a Texas high school and choose to go off to Brown or Cornell are doing it because they think it will help them get a job in Texas? Or that they will be stunned if they are beaten out for a job by someone who graduated from Texas A&M? They most certainly will not. They know that when they choose where to attend college.</p>
<p>I attended a fairly affluent suburban high school in the Midwest. I knew a heck of a lot of people who made a lot of money who were grads of state U. I wasn’t under any illusions that they were miserable and unhappy. </p>
<p>The Texas kid who chooses Swarthmore for college isn’t doing it to improve his chances of getting a job in Texas. That was also my point. </p>
<p>Again, I did not twist what you said.</p>
<p>Not everyone defines “successful” as “making SERIOUS money”, although that certainly seems to be the case in Texas where, historically, big cars, big houses, and big hair became the ideal goals.</p>
<p>Brilliant science research, top surgical skills, rocket science, orchestral prowess, literary brilliance, painting, sculpture, dance, Olympic level athleticism, there are many more worthy and enriching contributions to the world than over-earning, rampant consumption, and the creation of new over-consuming tots and teens.</p>
<p>^^^When I refer to “Elite school lovers” I am referring to those who would NEVER consider a school which is not on that list and then go on to make arguments ad nauseum as we see OFTEN here on CC that they are getting the best jobs, that not getting into those schools is practically unthinkable in terms of what it means for their kid’s future, that the best companies are mainly hiring grads from elite schools, and on and on as we’ve actually seen on this very thread, etc. You cannot act as though that theme is not seen again and again and again here on CC in just about every forum offered at CC. Please. Of COURSE there are people who know this to be false. </p>
<p>As to a kid who goes to Cornell from Texas, they may well believe that they will come back to Texas and have an advantage because they have been indoctrinated to believe that by people in their lives who wear the Ivy or Bust mantle. We actually do have that contingent in Texas as well. In some fields, they well may find that to be true, but in general, no. They are not at a disadvantage, it just becomes another school and another person competing for a job.</p>
<p>You still have not quoted me where I ever said or implied that a Swarthmore grad’s (or similar school grad) is “worthless”, so whether or not you want to admit “misinterpreting” my post- either deliberately or not- to make your point, it doesn’t change the gist. It was an unfair characterization of what I wrote as I’ve reiterated by re-quoting parts of my post which state categorically that even in Texas degrees from prestigious schools do get respect. And wrong again, I have ZERO bias against “elites” as I sent my kid to one AND I fell in love with Stanford when I visited-would have gone back in time and had a grand old time there if only I could. </p>
<p>Please DO have the last word, but it will be the last because I’m not going any further with the “yes you did” “no I didn’t” conversation it threatens to become. </p>
<p>And for the record, there is no such thing as a “worthless” degree in Texas or anywhere else. Going to college and finishing in and of itself says something about a person’s willingness to work hard, set and achieve goals, and provides evidence that the chances are good that that person will continue to work hard, and set and achieve goals and most employers who are looking for quality employees know that. </p>
<p>Moving on…</p>
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<p>And my point in bringing up UIUC, UW-Seattle, and UMich is that in certain fields, the Ivies aren’t considered the most elite or sometimes even elite period whereas some of the state flagships would be considered as such by those doing the hiring in those fields. </p>
<p>That’s not to say that it’s impossible for someone from Harvard or Brown to get hired at the topflight engineering/computer technology firms. </p>
<p>However, from what I’ve heard from those who hire at such companies or those who work there…if all else is equal…the ones from UIUC, UW-Seattle, and UMich are the ones most likely to cinch that engineering/CS job over the engineering/CS grad from most of the Ivies. </p>
<p>Part of this is perceptions most Ivies aren’t as strong in the technical sciences compared to topflight state flagships like the ones I named above. </p>
<p>Another dimension is the perception by some tech firms that it’s a waste of time to recruit at some because too many Ivy STEM grads end up going into more lucrative non-STEM fields like i-banking, business consulting a la BCG, etc. That and it generates perceptions that the engineering/CS majors there aren’t serious about doing engineering/CS as a career.</p>
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<p>Success is multifaceted. I brought up money because in this thread, and in a post to which I was replying, “better” **jobs **and salaries were being discussed. In fairness, I ALSO stressed personal and professional happiness in that very post because in my opinion, the lack of personal happiness and with regard to relationships and professional satisfaction would be a hollow success indeed.</p>
<p>BTW, the big hair thing is a stereotype, at least in the city where I live, which is populated by a whole lot of non native Texans. Don’t know anyone with big hair, though I do see it alot on TV shows which portray Texans.</p>
<p>Big houses, could be. Land is cheap, and so is housing. A big house here costs a fraction of what a tiny one in many hotbeds does. So people do tend to stretch out a bit.</p>
<p>Well, epiphany, I apologize if I misread your post 682, and if you had supported me earlier and I didn’t notice or properly “repay” you. Your allusion at the bottom of post 682 to the baseless insinuations you were calling out, as well as your stating you saw no evidence of the insults of those students who strongly desire to attend a top school, which I had asserted were on this thread, caused me to believe you were accusing me of making false statements. Isn’t lying what is implied by saying someone’s claim is baseless and you can’t find any evidence for it? </p>
<p>Also, your choice of words when talking about people who place a high priority on the Elites, which included the phrases “willful self-delusion” and “reasoning is irrational and irresponsible,” made me feel you were also piling on the very insults you claimed didn’t exist. If any of that post was meant as support of my position, then I completely missed it.</p>
<p>I have no ill feeling toward anyone on this thread. First, I’m not personally offended and second I see this as just an entertaining internet discussion. But I also don’t like to see students maligned for really, really wanting to attend our country’s best schools nor their thought processes called irrational and unsophisticated.</p>
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<p>And let’s not forget that many of us know people IRL who believe these things, too. It can be very aggravating to have to deal with parents like this at school functions and for our kids to have their offspring in class. One of my son’s classmates was so openly disparaging about the types of schools some of his peers were applying to, versus his “elite-only” list, that when he got shut out of EVERY SINGLE “worthy” school he applied to, he got absolutely no sympathy from anyone.</p>
<p>Hi, poetgrl, and re posts #788 and #793–yes, it was humorous on purpose. I am glad that you enjoyed it.</p>
<p>Lest anyone feel that I was too cavalier in referring to “my usual group of supporters,” I did not intend that! I have been greatly heartened by the posters who share my viewpoint about the negative comments concerning the 2400/2400/4.0 UW/“gazillion” AP crowd. Seriously, I am tremendously grateful to those posters.</p>
<p>fauve–what does your above post refer to? </p>
<p>Again, it seems to me that some posters are creating beliefs and positions that Ivy lovers supposedly hold, and then they are going to criticize those supposed beliefs. So are you saying, fauve, as posters did earlier in the thread and were responded to, that the people who really adore the Ivies largely do so because they want to make a lot of money? As for your second paragraph, wouldn’t you agree that all of those wonderful things can be, and are, also achieved by Ivy graduates?</p>
<p>^^According to Cobrat, a significant percentage of his classmates took it so seriously that they bullied kids who didn’t “make it” to the degree that these kids wouldn’t even come to class reunions decades later as successful, thriving adults because they knew they would still hear more of the abuse.</p>
<p>That’s a mentality which goes beyond the pale and I just cannot imagine how it gets so ingrained when there is so much evidence to the contrary.</p>
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<p>So if you run a tech company that likes to make low-ball offers, you instead go where the job seekers are more likely to accept?</p>
<p>All I know is that all the major tech companies recruit at Brown and hire plenty of graduates. So my son will have a shot if he chooses; the rest is up to him.</p>
<p>There’s no way to know exactly if recruiters might prefer a state grad or why. There’s also no way to know if the recruiters are trying to fill the same sorts of positions at each school. Google could well hire students from Brown to improve their algorithms and students from UIUC to make sure their server farms are kept up and running.</p>
<p>I also have to question the notion of making comparisons based on salary alone. Some jobs will work you like a dog and others might be satisfied with 40 or so hours a week.</p>
<p>In answer to #799, LF defended MIT’s statement about their selection process (still up to the best of my knowledge) that they ensure that “every decision is correct, in the context of the applicant pool.”</p>
<p>If people are not offended by Weiss’s column, and not offended by people closely connected with MIT referring to applicants as “robots” and “clones,” I can respect that as intellectually consistent, and reflective of a kind of “rough-and-tumble” style of interpersonal interactions. It’s not one I like, obviously! But it might reflect cultural differences.</p>
<p>If people are offended by both–well, that’s the group that I’m in.</p>
<p>If people are offended by one, but not the other, then I am curious why that is (either way it goes). lookingforward is one of the posters who seems to fall into that group.</p>
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<p>They absolutely are; I don’t see how anyone could argue the contrary with a straight face. Or how anyone could argue as referenced earlier that any of the top schools are “mediocre.”</p>
<p>But is anyone actually arguing that?</p>
<p>Wow, leave for a bike ride and you’re all fighting! Peace! Kumbaya!</p>
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<p>Sometimes there is justice in the universe. :)</p>
<p>Yeah, we are all about to miss a nice sunset.</p>
<p>Ditto to the Kunbaya and carry on if sunsets aren’t your thing…</p>
<p>Bike ride…well done…should have thought of that myself…</p>
<p>@LI: And it gets worse–he went to the “consolation” school on his list, hates it, and is now trying to transfer…to an Ivy you seem rather familiar with. :)</p>
<p>Well, QM, I would have to say, personally, it is not my knee jerk reaction to be offended by much of anything. I’m not on the PC train, and I find it rather constraining these days, in terms of the ability to find a useful metaphor. ;)</p>
<p>However, if I had to pick the more offensive it would be the one where adults are making fun of kids, just because … when kids are complaining… I’m not one to take it too seriously.</p>
<p>OTOH, if people get their feelings hurt, I feel badly about that.</p>
<p>So, for me, I think it’s all just confusing.</p>
<p>In my own house? I would tell my kids, if it feels offensive to you, then it is offensive. </p>
<p>So, I’ll stick by that. I think that feels offensive to you, QM, for whatever reason, and I would say that there are better ways to say the things that were said. Though, I think, too, that if we get too careful, we are in for a bleak and humorless existence.</p>
<p>I think, actually, the reason I find these things unoffensive is because I rarely see them as being all that “true.” For example, the Daniel character in the IMO series for the Brits struck me as anything BUT robotlike. And he is the one that would be directed at.</p>
<p>I think that URMs really don’t have a hook type advantage in admissions anymore. Just a tip… so, it just strikes me as silly exaggeration.</p>
<p>That is just my thinking.</p>