To the Parents of the World STOPP!!!

ellemenope · July 28, 2005, 7:20pm

I admit, I came on to CC a couple of years ago when my senior was applying to college. I stayed one year after she graduated to “give back” to the community. Now, I am just here for the entertainment–waiting 3 years until my younger kid will be applying to college.

(Well, I also volunteer at the College and Career Center at our local hs for one afternoon a week, so I do like to “keep up” with college applicaton trends. Latest trend–kids without a sense of humor?)

AlienBlue–paying for college is huge investment in the student’s time and the parents money. There may be very valid reasons for parents to make some rules about how much college their budgets can afford.

While there may be great financial aid for kids who are very poor (which you seem to be, since you receive a Pell grant), and while some families can pay for an Ivy education out of cash flow, many middle class parents and students will be caught in a bind–too poor to pay for a $160K education for each child, too rich to qualify for substantial financial aid. If the parents aren’t willing to go $100K in debt for each child, then their kids need to know that their college choices will be circumscribed.

ANALOGY: it is as if the parents promised their kids that they would buy them a car (college education). The kid wanted a top of the line Mercedes. Parents can only afford a Honda Accord. Both cars will get you where you want to go (a college degree). If you still want a Mercedes, you can buy yourself one with your own money (go to graduate school at an Ivy, where grad school is often funded by being a TA, doing research, taking out your own loans, etc.).

The mistake that I see the parents of your friends made is that they didn’t have the heart-to-heart money talk before the applications went in. We parents on CC have written extensively on the subject–and have counseled each other that if you are not going to be able to afford to sent Jr. to Harvard because of financial aid reasons (after calculating your EFC and looking under the cushions of the couch for spare change), then Jr. should know that up front and advised to not apply there. The parents of your friends were wrong in allowing their kids to apply to schools that they couldn’t afford–perhaps they figured that Jr. wouldn’t get accepted anyway, so what the heck–let him apply. When Jr. wins the lottery (gets into Harvard), the parents have to break the news to him that THEY didn’t win the lottery (the $$ kind)and they can’t afford to send him. No wonder Jr. is upset! He feels that his parents let him down.

Believe me, we parents on CC are all about supporting kids: we stress finding “fit” (not just applying to Ivy or being forced to go to State U when it doesn’t fit); majoring in what you love (not just engineering, pre-med or pre-law); balancing the $$ vs. quality issues that come up when looking at a college. I agree with soccerguy that the parents on CC are not the target audience for your message.

bluealien01 · July 28, 2005, 9:24pm

I haven’t seen you on here before.

AlienBlue2005 · July 28, 2005, 11:09pm

Just so we are on the same basis, my parents ARE divorced. The fact that my dad does not support much is the reason I was able to get financial aid. Also, there are plenty of scholarships out there for those who want them. I used to work with a financial aid counselor that was available through the county. She had a foler which, was the size of a book chocked full of scholarships. I am not a minority and english is my first language. My essays that I sent to Yale were “excellent”, an admissions officer from UCF told me. I worked on my essays for 3 weeks before attaching them to my application. My SAT scores were the only weakness in my application I was told by Mr. Johnson, Assistant Dean of admissions at Yale. In my other post I was searching for ideas that were original, everthing I come up with seems bland to me.

Even though UF was not my first choice school, I am enjoying it. My dream is to go to Yale. If it doesnt happen this year, there is always grad school. I like the classes I am taking now and am doing extreamly well. The programs I have joined have given me a chance to meet alot of new people. UF was my second choice school and I am glad that I am here.

Besides books, I have had alot of first hand experiance with admissions. Like I stated before, I was a college advisor for two years. I believe that if your student has the ability to get into an Ivy league or private school, they have the ability to find the money to go there. I never once stated in any threads, that you had to influnce your kids by your financial situation.

Just becasue I am a new college kid and I am younger that you parents, does not mean that I have no idea what I am talking about. I had to find my own money for college. The pell grant was the only piece of financial aid i had received. I had to apply for scholarships and take out loans (all in my name). There are dozens of websites that list thousands of scholarships that are available. I also understand in-state tuition is cheaper than out of state or private tuition. There is plenty of money availalbe as long as they give themselves plenty of time.

I don’t assume I know everything. A pet peeve of mine is when an adult thinks a kid cant hack it. I went to a vocational high school, where I received three years of training and experiance in computer repair. I would apply for industry jobs and would get turned down becasue i was not 18. The companies usually did not have minor laws prohibiting me working there, they just did not want to work with a kid. I would be contacted by companies like Universal Studios, Sears, and Marline solutions after they reviewed my resume. After numerous phone calls, I was told that i did not have the experiance they were looking for, or that they did not know how to work with minors. These people where human resource managers who should have known al the rules reguarding minor labor laws. they siply did not want to work with minors. The minute I turned 18, I had a job repairing computers. All my dual enrollment classes were at night and I could have easily worked during the day, they just didnt want to a kid working with them.

I am not entirely disagreeing with you. I just think that if your kid has thier heart set on a first choice school (it does not necessarily have to be an ivy or private school) than they can and should find the money to go there. I never expected my parents to pay a dime for college. My dad has a morgage payment, truck payment, and has a family of his own to support. My mom is still single and rents a house. If I would have gotten into Yale, I would have had to come up with alot of money on my own.

Remember that this forum does not apply to everyone.

bstewart · July 28, 2005, 11:32pm

“I agree with you that parents should let kids make their own decisions as to majors, and that our most important role is provide emotional support - to “be there” for our kids - not to control the process. But I think that some kids need to STOPP!!! seeing us parents as bottomless pits for financial support. Yes we have paid for everything you needed or wanted from the day you were born, but that doesn’t mean that we are obligated to pay upwards of $50K a year for college tuition for a prestige degree when we live in states where you can get a perfectly adequate college education for under $20K a year. Keep in mind that we parents are also aging - those of us who are older are worried about our long-term earning ability; we may have health problems of our own or elderly parents who will need our financial help. Age 50 may not be a good time of life for us to take on significant debt ourselves - especially if we are already in debt or do not have adequate savings for retirement.”

The college my parents thought I would choose: 17,174 a year with room and board, at least
The college my advisor thought I should go to: 26,838 a year private school with room and board, at least
The college I chose: 11,000 a year with room and board.

calmom · July 29, 2005, 12:01am

Alienblue, if you had been accepted to Yale, then your father’s income would have been considered in a financial aid award whether he contributes or not. You would have had to file a noncustodial parent income statement, and possibly submit his tax returns. If he is also low-income, then it wouldn’t matter – but if your father makes $100K annually and doesn’t contribute a cent to you or your mom, you would not have received much in the way from aid from Yale.

The reason you have full aid from UF is that most public schools do not require filing of CSS profile, or noncustodial parent statement.

ellemenope · July 29, 2005, 1:54am

I commend you for your efforts in getting yourself to college and paying for it on your own with nothing more than a Pell grant, scholarships and student loans. State U’s are tailor made for someone who has limited finances yet would like to get a college degree.

I note that UF tuition is $3,000/year with room and board totalling another $6,000/year. That amount is “do-able” when it comes to scholarships and student loans. But for a middle-class kid who won’t get much financial aid to come up with $45K+ every year for 4 years to go to Harvard? That’s a tall order.

AlienBlue2005 · July 29, 2005, 2:39am

Tuition at UF averages around 13,000 a year. It is actually a little more because of costs of orientation and any other way they can get thier hands into your pockets. I know applying to Yale and being accepted would have been a huge financial burden. My father does not make close to a 100k a year but has assets toatling that close. I would have had to come up with some serious money. I did though have plans worked out. I was going to work all summer, untill I went to UF for the summer, and save every penny I had. That plus the Yale payment plan and whatever they would have given me for aid would have paid for everything. I understand alot of parents do not like their kids working. I completely agree. I see students who do not work usually do a little better in school. I was ready though to do anything I would have had to do. With my original post I was not just fighting for Ivy league or private schools either. I see the same in community colleges and state universities. I see kids accepted to UF and cant go because, thier parents want them to stay close to home. This could be because of Housing costs, but if the kid wants a BA or BS, eventually the money is going to have to come out.
The scene that got me started on this whole topic was when I saw a girl crying at preview (UF’s orientation). She was balling her eyes out because her parents where forcing her to take a certain major. the day before our academic advisors striclty told us to choose our own majors. This post was not just about money and ivy league schools. Ivy league schools are great but are not for everyone. My best frineds dream was to come to UF and he was declined. He is now attending a local community college and will later transfer in. Another friend of mine was involved in a horrific car accident while he was in high school. He is now attending a community college and will be transferring to a state university. My idea in a whole was to let parents (and some of you dont do this) know that they need to let thier kids make thier own decisions.

(This thread may contain typos and mispellings. It is nearly 3 in th morning)

thumper1 · July 29, 2005, 7:51am

It is wonderful that you had this worked out for yourself. BUT I can tell you that it is not “workable” for many students and their families. Especially at colleges that “gap” student aid, some families simply cannot make up the difference. Also a finaid package that is primarily loans is almost like no finaid package at all to some. If the “Yale Payment Plan” is like the payment “plan” at most colleges, it simply means that you pay your tuition/room/board/fees monthly instead of in a lump sum. It does not GIVE you extra money.

I do agree that parents need to have serious discussions with students before the application process begins. This should include any restrictions they may have (financial, distance, even particular schools). Re: course selection and major…this should be up to the student. The reality is that once a student is IN college, the parents don’t have the right to even see their registration…or in many cases, their grade reports.

Another thing…community colleges DO award two year degrees and for some students it is not a beginning of another college search. It is the beginning of their working career. Not everyone completes a four year degree. Some students may also find a one year technical school the perfect match.

NOW…regarding all that “money” in scholarships…let us know how students can pay for $45,000 a year educations without finaid from their schools. THAT would be a helpful post. AND P.S. my college kid works very hard both during the summer AND during school. There is NO WAY he could pay his college bills himself and attend classes too.

gphoenix · July 29, 2005, 10:39am

I can’t believe this post has ballooned to this many replies…

As a peer counselor at my old h.s., I ran into a lot of parent-child squabbles. I never, ever challenged the authority of the parent. Even cases where social services was brought in, I felt it was wrong to kill the trust between parent and child. In these cases, I would have a guidance counselor deal with the parent, and I would encourage the kid to think on his own.

Accordingly and respectfully, it may be more effective to advise your peers to make their own college decisions independently of their parents. Kids need to be thinking for themselves just as much as parents need to be giving their kiddies space to think. Kids don’t need to shut parentals out of their lives or defiantly rebel against the units’ advice, but certainly they can listen to their parents, mull over the words of wisdom, incorporate it into a rational decision change, and take responsibility.

I personally am more worried about the kids who have no one to guide them than the kids with overly-protective parentals. Even the maximizing kids who stress over college like there is no tomorrow (me) give me more cause for worry than over-protective 'rents. If the kid is smart enough to go to college, they should be smart enough to learn to think for themselves. They just might melt their butter while they are learning.

Despite the amount of scholarship aid and loans advertised, it is not at all easy to get this aid. Scholarships have requirements and goals; oftentimes you aren’t eligible. You don’t have the stats, the scholarships are looking for another race, gender, career path, the competition is better. How many 17-years really know who has had the greatest impact on their life or how Kenny in Markandaya’s “Nectar in a Sieve” has accepted Indian culture? Sure, you win a couple small 2k scholarships, but if your college costs 35k, what then? Some else’s essay sounded better that particular day because your reader’s coffee high died right before reading your app. Or, your essay reader grades harder than your friend’s, and the way the scores come out, your essay comes out a point lower than his, thus propelling him to a full-ride, no-loan scholarship and you to nothingness.

And don’t even get me started on loans, cosigning, lack of financial training, foresight, planning. You can’t get any bank in New York to loan you the money to attend 4.5 years at NYU without a parent cosigning. Aid is tons and tons harder to come by then you would imagine. Even for the kids with pretty stats. Go easy on the parents who are trying to help their kids with the finances.

marmat103 · July 29, 2005, 11:07am

AlienBlue2005,

let me ask you a question. If “there are plenty of scholarships out there for those who want them” - how come you had to take out loans? Would it not be better to get a couple more scholarships?

You see, the abundance of scholarships does not mean it’s so easy to get them… :(

sybbie719 · July 29, 2005, 11:18am

Better question:

If Alienblu2005 is such a stellar student, I would think that s/he would have been eligible for a Florida’s Bright Futures Scholarship giving him/her a free ride

beachy · July 29, 2005, 12:07pm

“I have had alot of first hand experiance with admissions. Like I stated before, I was a college advisor for two years.”

AB2005 - please help me here…I’m puzzled by what this means…we have nothing like this position in our high school. If I understand this thread right, you just finished your first year at UF, so you were a ‘college advisor’ for your jr. and sr. years in HS? What did you do in this position? What expertise did you bring to it, since you were advising your peers (I assume) and had no background or experience in the process before they did. Was it more a position of ‘assistant (read: ‘gopher’) to one of the GCs’ that you worked at maybe one period a day during a study hall? Please explain…

ellemenope · July 29, 2005, 12:34pm

I agree with gphoenix. College is the time that you start being an adult, which means making rational decisions and explaining them to your parents. Crying to a stranger at orientation doesn’t accomplish anything.

Parents point of view: Many parents want their kids to choose a major that will lead to a job after graduation. They view college not in terms of intellectual fulfillment but in terms of getting a piece of paper that will lead to a career. After all, part of being a parent is doing what is needed to help their kids be able to make their way in life without being a burden on society (or them!). As good-intentioned as her parents may be, they were wrong in “forcing” her to pick a major of their choosing.

If this girl has a major in mind and can show her parents how this will lead to a career path, I am guessing that this would alleviate her parents concern. My worry is that she will take the passive-aggressive approach: "They’re forcing me to major in XXX? I’ll show them by doing terribly in my XXX classes. " Frankly that would hurt her more than it would hurt them.

I have a friend who was a Spanish major in college and everybody gave her grief–“How are you going to make a living with a degree in Spanish?” She is now a Spanish professor at a big university and makes a very good living, thank you.

Your parents can’t make you major in a specific subject; they can’t make you marry a specific person. Many try to manipulate you with money. Parents may threaten to withdraw $$, they may threaten to write you out of their will, etc. You have to follow your own destiny, no matter what others say.

ellemenope · July 29, 2005, 12:38pm

I don’t know what the qualifications are for this scholarship, but OP did mention that his test scores were a problem for Yale. Perhaps there was a floor SAT score required.

AlienBlue2005 · July 29, 2005, 2:42pm

I have bright Futures and it only pays costs of tuition. This does not include housing, the entire costs of books, and food.

AlienBlue2005 · July 29, 2005, 2:48pm

After seeing a lack of interent in fellow peers and students in the 10th grade i decided to create a program to provide the information kids were lookign for. I was ahead of the group but worked closley with guidance counselors, admisisons offficers (not so closely, usually just Q & A sessions), the financial aid avisior for the county, and I read quite a few books. In my Senior and Junior year of high school I began getting students interested in college to realize what it takes to get in. I had many peers who wanted to go to college but had no idea where to start. Despite the many signs and advertisments for the SAT, ACT, colleges, career advising, and scholarships, students were still clueless. I figured a program that was ran by students to help students would work. It did work. My school has 1 guidance counselor who can not reach out to everyone and we were helping to solve this problem.

soozievt · July 29, 2005, 2:53pm

AlienBlue, sorry if I found a lot of humor and perhaps did not come off that kindly in my previous post. In any case, I think a lot of what CalMom and Ellemenope wrote to you is VERY well said and speaks for many of us, myself included. I do commend you for doing well at school and for finding ways to pay for your education yourself if your parents cannot or will not help you on that end. I agree with everything else they said as well.

A couple points…you unknowingly are preaching to the wrong audience. The parents on this forum tend to be involved as a resource and facilitator to their children’s college process. They are quite a knowledgeable bunch as far as how the whole thing works (ya read here long enough, ya learn a lot). Many have read the books you have read, as well. I think sometimes students like you post this message of “STOPP” (though most write “STOP”) and criticize ALL parents in one lump sum right on this forum. They make this broad assumption that all parents, including ones on CC, are making their kids do certain things with regard to which school they attend, which major, and so on. I have not met those types of parents on CC but I know some do exist. But please do not assume that all parents do that. Speaking for myself, we let our kids apply to any schools they wanted, any location, and pick which to attend. We don’t care what major they choose, it is their choice. I realize not all parents are like this but many are, particularly on this forum. I agree with others who said that the crying girl whose parents told her what she had to major in (which is wrong, in my view) can still major in what she wants. She is an adult and this is her life. I also agree with others that it is a parent’s perogative to say how much they are willing to spend on college for whatever reason but that it is imperative that they state any limitations of this nature BEFORE the kid applies to X college that is a dream school that is too expensive, not AFTER he gets in. In our case, we put no limitations on our kids due to cost (but have full respect to those who make that decision), and we are on financial aid but we will be paying back college loans for years because we value education and want them to go where they feel they will flourish best.

I also agree with the parent who advised you about looking into many schools beyond Yale. Even a kid with a 1600 SAT and valedictorian, Yale is NOT a sure thing. It is a huge lottery. Your chances at that lottery with the SAT scores you mentioned make the odds of transferring in VERY long odds. SATs are not everything at all but you are up against kids who have the grades, the ECs AND the SATs and even they can’t all get in.

I wish you well and appreciate that you try to help other students out who are trying to get into college. Just so you know, you are preaching to the choir here. Read over the Parent Forum some time and all of CC, and you will see some very informed people when it comes to the college admissions process and some involved parents who have guided their child through it (not TOLD them what to do).

While I am sure you edited your college essays, you do need to be aware that your posts include numerous spelling and grammatical errors. I admit that I write in a FAR more casual style online than in other writing and my posts include typos all the time. But your post did stand out to me in this respect and so as someone who is sort of telling US what to do, I was paying it back.

Susan

AlienBlue2005 · July 29, 2005, 2:55pm

I understadn that alot of scholarships are hard to get. But if a student can get into an ivy league school there is no reason they can not get quit a few scholarships. The financial aid advisor for the county had a son that went to Yale. She was a middle class family, was divorced, and could not really afford the tuition costs. Her son did receive a little financial aid and the rest were in scholarships. He started filling out scholarshipsn when he was a juniro in high school and continued through his college career. He is now a grad student at Berkley on a full ride. There are so many scholarships it is not funny. Local Rotary club scholarships, 4h club, there is a website <a href=“http://www.fastweb.com%5B/url%5D”>www.fastweb.com</a> (I am sure you are aware of this site). Fastweb takes all your personal interests and academic accomplishments and compares them to the thousands of scholarships they have in thier data base. The student then just looks through and decides to apply. You cant just apply to one, you ust apply to many and keep on applying. It is also known (I will try to find the link for this) that Yale has given financial aid to students whose parents income is in the 200k range. I undertand it was probably in the form of loans and the parents probably did fork up some money.

I would have to agree that you need to explain your financial situiation to you kids and let them decide where to go from there. If they hve thier heart set on something, they can probably do it.

bluealien01 · July 29, 2005, 3:28pm

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My name is Anthony Sopher. I am a Frehsman at the University of Florida. I see in these parents threads alot of worries about thier kids maybe not being able to make it in thier first choice school. I see alot of parents starting early on getting thier kids into good schools. Coming out of High schol and going to college was eas for me. I did almost everything on my own from the admissions process to interviews. My parents stood by my side and were just support. I think the best thing that you guys can do is just be there for them. Dont force them to pick certain schools. I cans stand walking around UF and meeting kids who got accepted to Columbia, Brown, and even Harvard and didnt go becasue of thier parents. Your kids are going to grow up and want to move away and start thier own lives. In state tuition is easy on the ockets but you should do everything to support your childrens decisions.

Um…From what I’ve seen, most of the parents on CC aren’t like the ones you’re describing.

Make them take the SAT until they score perfectly?? Doesn’t that statement defeat the purpose of your post??

If they do not do so well, help them to make themselves better Make goals that can assist them with accomplishing thier own. Also make sure they take the ACT at least once. Some people do better on one test than the other. Make sure they do thier homework and study for tests in school. Look at profiles of kids who were accepted to the schools your kid is looking at going to. Get an idea of what it takes. Make sure they do not apply to only 1 school. Community college is a great stepping stone, but its a stepping stone. Dont force them to join extracurricular activities. Let them pick one on thier own. If you know they will need financial aid, make sure you have everything they will need and make sure they apply in time. IF they dont seem to interested in community srevice dont force them to it. Just remind them what the schools they want to go to look for in succesful applicants. Well rounded kids are the ones who do what they want to becasue they enjoy it. They bring dicersity into the classroom, challenge the teacher or professor and make a differance. They best thing for parents to do is just be there for them in thier every decision (reguarding college). If they dont get into thier first choice shools wait a little hile. They will get used to the idea of going to college and wil be excited about that alone. If they have thier heart set on a first choice school and do not get in, have the contact the admissions officers and see what fauts they have. Starting college is a fresh start and they can possible get into thier first choice as a transfer. I used to be a college advisor at my high school and I hope this helps alot. I will post later on some insider info on admissions officers. I have a class in 5 minutes. Well good luck to all of you and your children. You guys are our heros whether we say it or not.

I think the parents know about the importance of doing homework, investigating finaid, etc. already. What is discersity??

ag54 · July 29, 2005, 5:13pm

Anthony, I am sorry, but after reading through all of your posts, I am having a hard time believing that you are for real. And if you are, you are totally freaking me out. My S will be a freshman at UF in the fall and I don’t think he has met anyone quite like you. Although much of what you are saying has merit, your presentation is somewhat scary. And, if you really are as deeply involved in all of the organizations you say you are (Yale transfer post), after only being at UF for a summer session, how can you possibly keep your grades up?

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