Top Colleges, Largely for the Elite

<p>

</p>

<p>But it DOES tell you something about the innate intelligence of the 800 scorer: it is high. The fact that there may be others of high intelligence whose potential is handicapped and who do not score as well doesn’t change that. </p>

<p>Even among students who live in the same town and attend the same schools and have parents of roughly the same education and are the beneficiaries of roughly the same nurturing environment, there is still a distribution of scores, year after year.</p>

<p>But I think academic preparedness is more the issue.</p>

<p>I still insist that the significance is limited by what he mean by intelligence. As I’ve said, I know top scorers (not poetgrl’s d I’m sure) who are shallow jerks. It’s one set of tasks.</p>

<p>What do you all say about the kid with a super-high IQ (155), 3.9 average in year ahead or more courses across the board at a super-competitive high school, plenty of financial and emotional resources, but whose test scores vary hugely in different sittings (up and down), and across the material, with some 800’s and some below 500?? No LD. No attention issues ever have been noticed. Not the anxious type… Very (too!) chill about the whole college thing… refreshing? entitled??</p>

<p>This is a question about the validity of the SAT, the reliance on it, NO MATTER WHAT THE ENVIRONMENT or the GENES are.</p>

<p>Clearly, there will be no sympathy for a kid like this due to socio-economic background- totally get that. Kid’s tough luck that he does not test well or whatever is going on. Too many bright kids do test well for anyone to care.
Still???</p>

<p>I still insist that the significance is limited by what he mean by intelligence. As I’ve said, I know top scorers (not poetgrl’s d I’m sure) who are shallow jerks. It’s one set of tasks.</p>

<p>There’s something unpleasant to me when one’s children (I don’t mean poetgrl whose point was different) sit at the top of the testing pyramid to suggest that this is the most important arbiter of intelligence, and in the terms of this thread, worth.</p>

<p>I like the idea of multiple intelligences. There are so many amazing, accomplished, and worthwhile people on our planet and very few of them distinguish themselves via high IQ or SAT scores. For those that do, congratulations. I wouldn’t take that achievement away at all. But to keep harping on DNA and touting ones familial DNA seems a taste issue to me.</p>

<p>I’m sorry. But too many posts have referred to this and reverted to this point.</p>

<p>When my D was little people salivated over her looks. In fact, she and her brother were asked to pose by photographers all the time and have appeared in ads in NY Times, among other places.</p>

<p>It would be unseemly for me to suggest that pretty people have greater success, although studies prove they do.</p>

<p>And both my kids would be revolted with me if I tried to assert this on a board.</p>

<p>In fact, my D left performing because she said there was too much emphasis on her looks. She is now in law school with the goal (unrealistic at this point) of a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting the death penalty in US.</p>

<p>I admire what she’s doing, but I wouldn’t make her public spirited dedication the arbiter of worth.</p>

<p>There are so many ways to entice worthy candidates to elite schools and provide for them.</p>

<p>And I refuse to agree that a top test scoring engineer has more intrinsic worth than a less top scoring Pulitzer Prize winning poet.</p>

<p>Both have worth as do many others, including the impoverished kid who can’t turn on the light at night to study because his/her siblings would awaken and it’s the only room in the apartment. If that kid has struggled and demonstrated success in an academic area I don’t think numbers should be parsed about test results.</p>

<p>When we have a society run by just one kind of mind we have disasters. It was the Harvard brain trust, all from similar backgrounds, that produced the quagmire of the Vietnam War. What if a Vietnamese person or a woman, both from very different backgrounds, had been involved in the decision making process, perhaps we’d have had a different outcome and fewer Napalmed children.</p>

<p>I am not suggesting that all high scorers on the SAT come from the same background but they do all have a similar way of thinking. </p>

<p>I did coach my son. He improved his verbal score to an almost perfect score when I told him he was being too finicky with the questions and seeing valid issues in the answers that the testers didn’t intend.</p>

<p>A good friend was a very high scorer on the SAT. As a high school senior she was asked to write questions. True story. They weren’t always the best questions.</p>

<p>It does take talent to finesse those questions. And intelligence. But so do many other kinds of thinking that the SAT doesn’t begin to measure.</p>

<p>^^wow! is this the liberal I’m OK your OK we’re all OK, Kennedy went to Harvard and therefore burned kids in Vietnam, and it’s all because of one SAT cultural mind set, OK then…</p>

<p>yet my kids are good looking but I don’t like people that say that on boards like this, but whoops I just said it</p>

<p>wow!</p>

<p>Actually, they’re not as good looking as they were as children. And that’s you’re, not your in your first sentence.</p>

<p>you’re your shmoor…I didn’t write the rant above. do you really believe Kennedy and that crowd wanted to burn kids?</p>

<p>And Robert McNamara invented napalm bombing when he worked for Lemay during WWII. They invented it to fire bomb Japan (McNamara was the one who realized Japan was built from wood and all you had to do was start a fire), they killed more people doing that then any other type of attacks in WWII. Then McNamara went to work for Kennedy and the whole Vietnam thing got rolling.</p>

<p>McNamara went to Oakland Tech high school in Oakland California, and then to UC Berkeley. He was a smart Irish kid from the Oakland flat lands who tested:) really well. I guess that proves how dangerous tests are:)</p>

<p>Now, had I been driving down Bancroft Ave lighting a cigarette (1936 version of texting) near Sather Gate as Robert walked towards Telegraph…who knows, maybe no one would have been burned in Vietnam.</p>

<p>Advantage, Mythmom.</p>

<p>Yikes! :eek:</p>

<p>I’ve been at work all day and I find myself in the middle of an argument.</p>

<p>I do not believe the SAT is a measure of anything other than the ability to take the SAT. I think the example above of Performers mom bothers me most. A kid with those grades and variables in sitting scores benefits from superscoring and it is an educated parent who will know which schools superscore and which do not. (which simply illustrates the nuances of parental education and involvement, and what a difference these things make in the education game.) </p>

<p>For the record, the things I like best about my daugher have very little to do with her high scores. The high scores were a nice validation for her at the end of a long, long academic struggle, which was nice. But, she has had to work so hard for so many things, I don’t worry about her believing those scores have meaning beyond the test itself.</p>

<p>So, DNA aside, I really actually believe its been our resources and education coupled with my daughters hard work which gave her an edge. Had we been worried about finances at the level that a pell grant family has to worry about finances? I sincerely believe the results WOULD have been different.</p>

<p>Let me just say, Pacheight, your daughter sounds really great, and you are rightfully proud of the hard work she has done to get where she has gotten. Nobody here is trying to take that away from her, I don’t think. :)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>What exactly do you mean by that? Were you referring to me? Because if you were, you missed the point of my previous posts. They were not about “familial DNA.” Rather, they were a demonstration that </p>

<p>(1) there is no such thing as familial DNA – but no one needed my observations to reach that judgment; one just needs to read the research on IQ variants within relatives and generations; rather, genes distribute in unpredictable and sometimes uneven ways, and even then, the high-IQ recipients among those benefit from an environment to make that IQ as productive as possible. And stimulation doesn’t just encourage interest in academics. The studies show that stimulation increases the IQ itself. </p>

<p>(2) differences in schooling can account for definitive differences among those with similar inborn IQ. (And those differences affect standarized testing results.)</p>

<p>(3) expectations influence outcomes, positively and negatively. (And expectations are affected by responses to personality traits, to physical characteristics, to family dynamics, and to learning styles – even apart from learning disabilities.)</p>

<p>None of this is new; I doubt it will be new to anyone on this thread. I just wanted to be clear about the context of my message.</p>

<p>“I do not believe the SAT is a measure of anything other than the ability to take the SAT”</p>

<p>brilliant comment, the nothing matters, no measurements are real, because my kid is special. poetry girl i don’t believe your daughter is the one of 100 children out out of 2 million who got a 2400 SAT yet couldn’t read at 12 years old…your description sounds delusional </p>

<p>I’m sorry your daughter has problems, but many things in life can’t be fixed, it’s best to just love your child for who she is…a mom can’t fix everything</p>

<p>Your personal attacks are really winning you friends and influencing people around here, pacheight. Neither my kid who tests well nor my kid who does not test well has “problems.” </p>

<p>You, however, are clearly a whole other story. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Back to the OP. My D just sent me a text </p>

<p>“Just told tmarx that his socioeonomic iniatives changed my life. He said I was gonna make him cry. #winning.”</p>

<p>My 1st generation, URM, low income kid that is applying to med school this cycle is exactly the kind of student that Amherst actively seeks out and recruits. What they and other schools do for kids like mine is life changing. What they have done for her is so much more than just an UG education, it is a life eduation.</p>

<p>recapping from last night,</p>

<p>~I’m clear now on what mythmom meant, so all is good on that front. :)</p>

<p>~bclintock, Thanks for your comments. Just a correction on an apparent misunderstanding on your part: Accommodated LD’ers, if they are legitimately LD with a professional diagnosis and have demonstrated need for accommodation prior to the SAT, generally do only marginally better, if at all, with accommodation than without. Standardized testing is largely multiple choice. If one is ADD, this is the worst possible testing format; these students would far prefer open-ended, fill-in-the-blank, etc. Their brains confuse signals enough; giving them 4 or more choices within a tightly timed environment does not test their ability to generalize, analyze, deduce, induce; rather, it tests their ability to try to self-manage their internal wiring. That is why at least adding more time just gives them more opportunity to sort (because their brains scramble data). </p>

<p>The added element of torture to the SAT (vs. the ACT), is the alternating verbal/ quantitative in rapid succession. Yeah, what a terrific idea for an ADD’er. </p>

<p>I don’t know about anyone here, but never once in either undergrad or graduate school was I ever given any multiple choice test, let alone one which deliberately asked us to produce in rapid-fire succession between two different disciplines. (Anthro and physics profs did not get together and say, “Wait, we have a great idea: 20 minutes of anthro questions, followed by 20 minutes of physics problems, then 20 minutes of anthro, no break, 15 minutes of physics.”) </p>

<p>My undergrad and graduate education were 180 degrees different from any standardized testing format anywhere. Testing was based on cumulative long reading (before the test, or lengthy passages during the test), then synthesizing, analyzing, summarizing, drawing conclusions. Science tests were based on applications of principles.</p>

<p>Standardized testing can be an inclusive indicator of inborn ability, but does not necessarily exclude, and that’s why it’s rather inadequate as a measure of college-level potential. I think Consolation was leaning in that direction. It also is biased toward those who are heavily left-brain-oriented, and those (inclusively) with previous practice in timed testing formats. Finally, they are inclusively, not exclusively, indicative of acquired (and inborn) cognitive processing at a particular moment/stage in time. What most forget is that the brain does and will continue to grow in college, not to mention beyond. Refinement and complexity of cognition will occur in undergraduate work so that a student will be processing at a significantly higher level by junior year in college versus junior year in high school. (Cognition undergoes quantum leaps.) The SAT is a reduced positive indicator by sophomore year in college, and is leveled completely by junior year.</p>

<p>Regarding GA2012mom’s comments: Yes. This is entirely the point of initiatives like that of Amherst. It is an uphill climb for most from low-income backgrounds, period. The overwhelming majority will have a variety of factors making them unable to make the grade for college, let alone compete for an ‘elite’ level one. This is why it’s so odd to me that anyone would want to conduct a campaign against such initiatives. All of society benefits from less stratification, less ignorance, more ability to engage with ideas in order to solve problems. Nevertheless, these efforts by the elite colleges are not grandly society-changing; they are merely recognition of individual worth, talent, ability, drive, intelligence. That’s why “top colleges” are indeed “largely for the elite.”</p>

<p>GA2012: You post made me a bit teary, too. Brava! And Bravo to Anthony Marx, though as the devoted parent of an Eph I have to say, hiss, boo, hiss.</p>

<p>I am delighted for your daughter, for Amherst, for you, for Tony Marx and society in general.</p>

<p>And there are many more like her. Let’s find a way to reach more of them, and then more of them again.</p>

<p>epiphany: We agree about so much but particularly about the last paragraph of your last post. Insightful and movingly written.</p>

<p>poetgrl: Not only do I have no doubts that your wonderful daughter exists, I would like to meet her!!! and the wonderful daughters epiphany PM’ed me descriptions of. And no, not because of their test scores but because of the humanity in their offspring their mamas eloquently communicated.</p>

<p>I’m sure I would love to meet all the kids discussed above.</p>

<p>That’s why I’m a college teacher. I believe in the young and in their potential, both the potential already demonstrated and the potential just hinted at.</p>

<p>Colleges can’t test for humanity, but I think ad coms do sometimes in reading essays, and that’s a good thing, too.</p>

<p>Who or what is an Elph? Sorry, had to ask.</p>

<p>Look at what % of kids going to the top colleges are on financial aid. And that is just aid as given by the college, not outside loans that even more families and kids take who are going to these high cost schools. Yes, that still leaves some who are paying full freight with no loans at all, but not the vast majority at ANY US college. </p>

<p>But there is no question that what is needed for acceptance and to pay for these colleges does eliminate many kids right off the bat. No question that kids from families that can provide the opportunities and education will have a big leg up. But I have one kid out of my brood that can’t get higher than average (and I mean true 50% average) on test scores. Great student but doesnt’ test well on SAT, or other aptitude tests, and yes, he has been test prepped and tutored. Has 4’s on a bunch of APs but just can"t do well on the college tests. Has had the same opportunities and the same gene pool as his siblings. Just the way it works sometimes. So the very top schools were off limits to him as a first time college applicant.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Students and/or Alumni of Williams College are Ephs</p>

<p>Eph, not Elph, not that it really matters. That’s a kid who goes to Williams, named after their purple cow mascot whose is reputedly named Ephelia. All this Ephing is after Ephraim Williams who is the original benefactor of Williams.</p>

<p>Williams and Amherst are fierce rivals. Tony Marx is the retiring president of Amherst.</p>

<p>Ephs resent any good words spoken about Amherst, and Lord Jeffs (Amherst kids) feel the same way about Williams.</p>

<p>Eph here. I have lots of good things to say about Amherst. But to name the teams Lord Jeffs is disgusting. (not so LOL!)</p>