Top Tier, 2nd Tier, 3rd Tier

College Search & Lists
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<p>

Not if you’re talking about the “elite corners” of LEGAL America. As I said, in many big law firms in places like DC, NYC, and Atlanta, the University of Texas Law School has been a target recruiting school for DECADES, long before UCLA and Vandy were target schools. And, among legal academics and intellectuals, the Texas law faculty has LONG been known as one of the most distinguished in the country, with major national superstars throughout much of the past century.</p>

<p>I agree with you that as a university, the national reputation and prestige of Texas lags behind those of Berkeley, Michigan, Virginia, UCLA, etc. But your original statement was specifically about law schools, and among “elites” and knowledgeable people in the legal profession and legal academia, the national reputation and prestige of the University of Texas Law School is comparable to those of UCLA and Vandy, and its history of national prominence is much older than that at either UCLA or Vandy.</p>

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<p>45 Percenter,</p>

<p>I’m going to jump gears a bit, and ask for your honest opinion.</p>

<p>Do you think Texas is lagging behind UCLA and UNC-Chapel Hill in terms of overall prestige and brand name recognition? (I’m not referring to law school, just referring to the school in general.) </p>

<p>If so, why do you believe that?</p>

<p>I actually think Texas is a great school academically, but it never gets much respect in the northeast (in contrast, both UCLA and UNC Chapel Hill seem to be much more highly regarded than Texas). So I think it ultimately comes down to Texas lacking brand name recognition and prestige outside the South…</p>

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<p>“Top Tier: HYPSMC, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore
Second Tier: Other “Ivy League” schools, Top National Universities, Top LACs”</p>

<p>kwu,
One of the two people who created the USNWR ranking methodology expressed that Dartmouth would always be number one if it’s ranked in the LAC category.</p>

<p>“The Big Five that all CCer’s must make some sort of sacrifice to at sundown every day’s end… i.e. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT (the undisputed “best” undergrad universities in the country).”</p>

<p>Milkey,
Are you a high schooler who worships the top research universities? The Big Five refers to the top five research universities, not “the undisputed best undergrad universities in the country.” Which don’t even make sense.</p>

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<p>No, it was meant to be a joke. But never mind…</p>

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<p>IP Bear, I certainly don’t worship HYPSM in the least. I was only responding to a question asking what the acronym stood for, in fact my post was meant to be fairly sarcastic. I also beg to differ that they are meant to be the best research universities, especially since Princeton really isn’t a huge research school since it is much more undergrad focused than many of its peers. Kwu is right in correcting me however that they are the top 5 “most prestigious” (not “best”, notice the quotations) undergrad institutions, this is what i think about when i think HYPSM. Its amazing how often people on CC lack a sense of humor/take things WAY too seriously,</p>

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<p>mikey101,
My bad. I didn’t pore through the whole thread. I didn’t sense the sarcasm because I read your post out of its context.
Duke, Caltech, and Penn are considered by many to be more prestigious than two of the Big Fives now due to their recent successes in USNWR rankings.</p>

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<p>Just a rhetorical response to a rhetorical question, if you ask me. For one thing, it matters NOT what other schools are ranked or even the one you attend or attended. Why? What matters is what you learned and what you DID with what you learned. Fulbright Scholarships are not limited to top tier or top 30 schools. Not even close. Same for Truman, Rhodes and all the other prestigious post grad studies scholarships. </p>

<p>Second, people who fixate on rankings are often people who fixate on social strata. In today’s working world that is the kiss of death on the job. I know someone who went to Georgia Tech and Carnegie Mellon for grad school. He spends most of his time in the neighborhood reminding people of those facts, as if we are supposed to be impressed and as if we didnt go to college or a school that is as prestigious. He has had three jobs in the last year. I suspect his arrogance was a reason he keeps getting ‘downsized’. </p>

<p>Where ever you are attending be thankful, be proud, and be compassionate. I am reminded of the late Tim Russert. Some wonderful things were said about him this last weekend. Some of the most heartwarming were his humble roots and academic qualifications (John Carroll University and Cleveland Marshall College of Law-Cleveland State). He was hired by perhaps one of the greatest intellectual giants of the United States Senate: Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Sen. Moynihan chided him when he queried if he would fit into the Ivy League crowd in his office: " What they know, you can learn. What you know, they cannot learn." Moynihan hired him because of his blue collar roots and perspective, to offset the egoism and condescending tone of the Ivy Leaguers in the hallways of the Senate. Mr. Russert remained faithful to his humble roots, but also very proud of where he came from and what he learned from his educational alma maters. That humility, zest for life, and his inquisitiveness and POSITIVE attitude and ability to get along with others of all walks of life is what projected him to enormous success in life as the preeminent political pundit in Washington DC the past 20 years. </p>

<p>Or as my father used to remind me, “Dance with the one who brung ya!” </p>

<p>If you got into and attend Princeton! Wonderful! If you are attending John Carroll or Iona, Wonderful! But dont fixate on rankings or social strata. It wont help you in this globalized economy of ours where getting along with others is the MOST VALUABLE asset you may have as an employee, or if you want to KEEP your job.</p>

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<p>alGorescousin,
It’s important to ask what do we learn in college? At Princeton, some people learn less facts than those attending state schools. Yet, the Princetonians have high-paying jobs waiting for them while others don’t because Princeton teaches ways of thinking and acting.</p>

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<p>Because it’s an Ivy League school, or because it has the resources of a national university? Why isn’t it categorized as a Liberal Arts school, then?</p>

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<p>It also imbues its students with the confidence and assertiveness to succeed.</p>

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<p>I can’t image Dartmouth would be #1 if ranked as a LAC by US News standards. It has a much lower per-student endowment than the top LACs, its alumni giving rate is only spectacular when compared to universities and not at all special compared to liberal arts colleges, and its PE score would likely not be so high when judged by liberal arts people who would knock off points because of any bias against graduate schools/pre-professionalism (obviously Dartmouth still has a strong undergraduate focus, but not in the way that Amehrst, Williams, and Swarthmore do). Dartmouth is in an in-between stage, and I think it is content to be just that, but it wouldn’t fare so much better if judged by liberal arts standards.</p>

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<p>I’ve also seen an article where both editors of USNEWS stated that Dartmouth would continually be at the top of the LAC rankings.</p>

<p>Its PA Score would likely be among the top 2-3 due to its overall reputation, its selectivity would be number one, its academic metrics (s/f ratio, graduation rate) would be in the top 2. Its small weaknesses among LACS (endowment per student is about 75% of AW) actually wouldn’t show as faculty resources would be higher than the LACs.</p>

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<p>kwu,
Dartmouth isn’t categorized as a Liberal Arts school because it’s categorized as a research university by the Carnegie Foundation. However, the Carnegie Foundation expresses that Dartmouth is the only institute mainly focusing on undergraduate program that also has high research activities. I’m defending Dartmouth because my brother goes there. I believe there is no substantial difference between the education he receives at Dartmouth and the one I receive at Princeton. Princeton, and quite a few other schools, give their students credential to succeed in this unfair world.</p>

<p>unregistered: “It has a much lower per-student endowment than the top LACs.”
Actually, Dartmouth’s endowment per-capita is not much lower than top LACs’. I didn’t say Dartmouth would rank number one. The co-creator of USNWR’s ranking methodology said it.
Williams: $783,000
Dartmouth College: $614,035
Wellesley College: $603,969
Bowdoin College: $404,955
Middlebury College: $295,249</p>

<p>slipper1234,
Do you still have the links? I saw the articles a while ago, but now I can’t find them.</p>

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<p>The variance in answers above shows why I don’t use the term ‘tier’. </p>

<p>I try to use the term “Top 10” or "Top 20 or “top 30” depending on the selectivity of the group I am speaking about.</p>

<p>When I say “Top 10”, it is generally the Top 10 National Universities. However, when I say “Top 20”, I personally (I realize others think what they wish to think) include my top 2 LACs – Williams and Amherst. Just personal preferences.</p>

<p>By USNWR rankings on 2 separate lists
The problem exposed here is that USNWR does not have a single list, but separate lists for National Universities, and LACs. They refuse to reduce to a single list and I don’t blame them for this. Yet, for many, especially those who have been dealing with college selectivity for years, the top 2-4 LACs are as desirable as HYP, in that they offere a completely different learning environment, which to some is preferable to HYPSM.</p>

<p>By Selectivity:
I have solved this conceptual problem for myself by disregarding USNWR, and rank ordering Unis and LACs according to admissions selectivity. On this list of mine, positions #11 - #14 are occupied by Pomona College (18%) , Amherst, Williams and Swarthmore (19% each).</p>

<p>By Midpoint 25/75 SAT scores:
Yet another way to attempt to rank the quality of classes/schools.</p>

<p>By Cross Admit battles
This list rank orders both Universities and LACs by admitted student preference data from which the authors have created a rank order of preferences: [SSRN-A</a> Revealed Preference Ranking of U.S. Colleges and Universities by Christopher Avery, Mark Glickman, Caroline Hoxby, Andrew Metrick](<a href=“http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105#PaperDownload]SSRN-A”>http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=601105#PaperDownload)</p>

<p>Here are the top 30 schools shown by these four separate methods (USNews/%admitted/SAT 26-75 Ave./Cross Admit Preferences: (rank ordered according to Cross Admit Preference)</p>

<ul>
<li>Harvard is 2/1/2/1</li>
<li>Caltech is 5/9/1/2</li>
<li>Yale is 2/2/4/3</li>
<li>MIT is 7/6/7/4</li>
<li>Stanford is 4/4/12/5</li>
<li>Princeton is 1/3/4/6</li>
<li>Brown is 14/8/12/7</li>
<li>Columbia is 9/5/10/8</li>
<li>Amherst is LAC2/12/15/9</li>
<li>Dartmouth is 8/11/7/10</li>
<li>Wellesley is LAC4/39/29/11</li>
<li>Penn is 5/10/15/12</li>
<li>Notre Dame is 19/28/47/13</li>
<li>Swarthmore is LAC3/12/18/14</li>
<li>Cornell is 12/23/30/15</li>
<li>Georgetown is 23/16/25/16</li>
<li>Rice is 22/17/14/17</li>
<li>Williams is LAC1/12/15/18</li>
<li>Duke is 8/16/6/19</li>
<li>Virginia is 23/58/55/20</li>
<li>BYU is nr/nr/100+/21</li>
<li>Wesleyan LAC11/31/30/22</li>
<li>Northwestern 14/36/20/23</li>
<li>Pomona is LAC7/12/10/24</li>
<li>Georgia Tech 35/100+/58/25</li>
<li>Middlebury LAC5/16/34/26</li>
<li>Berkeley 21/21/55/27</li>
<li>Chicago 9/71/18/28 </li>
<li>Johns Hopkins is 14/27/25/29</li>
</ul>

<h2>- USC is 23/27/37/30</h2>

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<p>“He was hired by perhaps one of the greatest intellectual giants of the United States Senate: Daniel Patrick Moynihan.”</p>

<p>Oh thank god…for a moment there I thought you were going to say Al Gore.</p>

<p>By the way, I’m curious…if one shouldn’t be concerned or arrogant about social status then why would one flaunt their family ties to a vice president? Just curious is all.</p>

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<p>

I do think that Texas lags behind UCLA and UNC in overall prestige and recognition among the general population in the northeast. I think much of that is probably due to a general northeastern bias against the state of Texas as somehow not being very intellectual, as well as UT’s decades-old reputation as a major football power (and Texas’ reputation as a football-obsessed state).</p>

<p>I agree with you that academically, Texas is much better than its general reputation in the northeast. For example, many of its departments are highly ranked in the National Research Council (NRC) rankings of graduate programs; its law, business, pharmacy, communications, etc. schools are also highly ranked; it has one of the largest and best university libraries, rare book and manuscript collections, university art museums, and university performing arts complexes in the world; etc.</p>

<p>I suspect that over time, with the continuing growth of the economic and cultural significance of the state of Texas (now 2nd most populous in the nation) and its cities (e.g., Houston, Dallas, and San Antonio are now among the 10 largest cities in the nation, Austin contines to grow as a high-tech and entertainment center, etc.), the general view of Texas in the northeast will adjust to the new realities, and this will no doubt help the general reputation of its flagship university. Also, a bit more enlightenment in the Texas legislature could help tremendously, by allowing the UT administrators the freedom and flexibility to develop the school and its undergraduate student body as they see fit.</p>

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<p>Where did these numbers come from? They’re outdated…</p>

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<p>They are from 2006. Do you have newer ones?</p>

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<p>Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT</p>

<p>They are in a class in their own give the size of their endowment. The amount of spending power is about the same as many top national universities combined!</p>

<p>New class, “Elite Class”</p>

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<p>Texas has a better reputation in engineering than UCLA and UNC.</p>

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Indeed–UT is among the top 10 or so in engineering.</p>

<p>But we were discussing it’s overall reputation as a university, and especially in the northeast. When you break UT’s reputation down into its component parts, it generally excels. However, its overall national academic reputation seems to be a case of the whole being LESS than the sum of its parts, unfortunately.</p>