<p>POIH- I envy you. You live in a magical world that has little connection to reality. Must be nice.
I don’t know who is to blame- if anyone- for this tragic death. I simply don’t have the facts.
That said… In YOUR magical world, are there REALLY no “smart” well-educated people who are not capable of lapses in judgment? There sure are in mine! Have you not heard of The Absent Minded Professor? My son graduated from an Ivy- albeit not one that you would respect. He tells stories of his “smart” classmates whose parents spent $200K plus to send them there getting so drunk that they passed out face down in the middle of a busy city street. Other of the “smart” classmates were arrested for assault at a bar.
And, guess what? It happens at Yale and MIT, also. </p>
<p>What makes your posts so offensive (and, frankly, stupid) is that you seem to truly believe that anyone admitted to Yale (or MIT) is incapable of making a mistake or cutting a corner. Have you not read all the articles (I believe one was by a Harvard grad) about the students at these schools abusing ADD medications? How smart is that?</p>
<p>Very smart people often make huge mistakes. I don’t know if this unfortunate girl was tired, cutting corners, not properly trained or what, but the blame doesn’t automatically default to Yale.</p>
<p>All machines are capable of having safety mechanisms in them. There’s no reason why that machine (or any other machine in the world) doesn’t have them. </p>
<p>Ie- my iron shuts off if it’s laying face down for more than 10 seconds, an turns off after ~15 minutes if left on by mistake. </p>
<p>Some machines shut off when something is caught in it/if something comes in contact with it that isn’t supposed to. </p>
<p>Question: some cars have automatic braking when it comes too close to another car (while driving.) the driver doesn’t have to be looking/doesn’t have to manually brake the car. One day, the car doesn’t automatically brake, and the person gets in an accident and is killed. Is it the person’s fault for not being 100% wary, or is it the car company’s fault for the machine not doing what it’s supposed to? </p>
<p>This is a freak accident, and no one is necessarily more “at fault” than anyone. Depending on which side you “take” though, either party could be “wrong”. </p>
<p>Teriwtt- I don’t think POIH was going too far to think the family would feel that way after reading the statement POIH quoted. I instantly felt that way too. </p>
<p>I’m not an adult, but I felt like commenting on this subject. It hits close to home (literally and figuratively.)</p>
<p>If you have never used Lathe then don’t assume. I’ve used lathe machines and there is no instant death in case of hair getting stuck in the machine. So in case of a supervision this could certainly be avoided by the kill switch.</p>
<p>The word “blame” has been used on this thread a few times. What I learned in many years of work in a biotech industry is that laying blame and emotional finger pointing are the last things that should be done during investigation of workplace accidents. People would keep accidents under wraps and not seek medical attention if they were afraid of being fired or punished. Each accident has to be carefully looked into, and the causes have to be determined to prevent similar things from happening in the future. Of course, punishment is appropriate if the accident was the result of deliberate sabotage of safety rules and procedures (e.g., a criminal act).</p>
<p>collegealum: my FIL worked as a metalworker until he retired at the age of almost 80. H told me that his dad’s shop would not let anyone with loose clothing or hair hang out in the shop, much less touch a lathe. Workers were required to wear aprons and NO gloves while using lathes. Despite all safety in place, in the many years FIL worked there, there were a few accidents for various reasons. According to H, death would be very quick if a person’s neck was twisted and broken as a result of the person’s hair being pulled in by rotating parts of certain machines.</p>
<p>cellardweller: OSHA can fine organizations for violations of safety. That’s what I meant. I was not talking about criminal liability.</p>
<p>As I said before, I work with industrial health and safety. Fatal accidents happen in many ways, and some of them are quite bizarre. You really cannot say anything for sure until the facts are known.</p>
<p>Lol. I win! I knew poih would play the condescending “I forget who I am talking to” card. Learn some social skills, poih. Have you not noticed that no one agrees with you? Hurling insults doesn’t win you any brownie points. Please stop posting. We are embarassed for you.</p>
<p>POIH why are you using the word “dumb” so much? Why does it make the girl dumb if she made a mistake? This makes me think of two weeks ago when I drove half a mile home at night without my headlights on- really stupid mistake, totally my fault, could’ve ended badly. If it’s not Yale’s fault, it doesn’t mean she was stupid. It just means that like every single person in the world, she wasn’t perfect every second of every day.</p>
<p>The CC community is normally a very kind, caring and helpful group. Everyone here should be calling their kids, or giving them a big big hug. The situation for this young woman is tragic. We should providing our sympathies to the family and friends of this promising young woman whose life ended so prematurely. </p>
<p>I’m hopeful that we can unite as a forum to express our sympathies instead of sniping about what might have happened or whatever. There is a young life that has been lost. I send my prayers and love to the family and friends of this young woman.</p>
<p>It really doesn’t matter who is to blame, you can argue this all you want (doesn’t mean either of you are right). I don’t really see why anyone would even share this on CC. Is it fun to debate the death of a college student? Just give your condolences to the family and move on, unless you have something less insensitive to discuss about this tragedy…</p>
<p>Before someone hopefully kills this thread, poih,please try to read a little more carefully before you attack the wrong people. All those things you seem to have attributed to me were said by other posters.</p>
<p>thumper, I join you in sending my deepest sympathies to the friends and family of this amazing young lady.</p>
<p>Although I did not know Michele, I’m very much shaken by the tragedy. I had a dream about extinguishing a lab fire last night. I do not think the thread has to be erased. Aside from some trollish posts, the discussion of laboratory and industrial safety on this thread serves as a reminder to its readers to follow safety procedures and take precautions.</p>
<p>The accident does not have to be the result of deliberate action to be punishable. Punishment is also appropriate in the case of negligence that contributes to serious accidents. If this tragic accident could have been prevented though 24 hour supervision of the facility, then Yale should be severely punished. There is simply no excuse. Yale is one of the wealthiest universities in the world and could easily afford round the clock personnel. Or close the facility at night. Again, negligence has not yet been established but it frankly does not look good. My own D is also a graduating senior involved in all types of science research at a major university. I would be incensed if I knew her department let her use a lathe, alone, at 1 AM in the morning!</p>
<p>But there’s another piece of information we don’t know – which is whether students who wish to have after-hours access to the machine room are asked to sign a specific written agreement which includes a waiver of liability. It could be that the only way the student gets a key to the room is by signing a document that includes such a waiver.</p>
<p>My heart breaks for this girl and her family, she died in a horrible, horrible accident. My husband owns a manufacturing company, lathes are used infrequently and there are stict safety rules for them as well as all of the machines and machining centers. I really don’t know anything about lathes and I told my husband I did not want to know any details because I can already imagine how much this poor young woman suffered, my husbands employees are certainly not Yale students, but POIH they are no “dummies”, they are professional, trained machinists (my husband is not a trained machinist, so he stays away from the machines), H’s company has an excellent safety record because these men are careful and they watch out for each other. No one tolerates safety violations, but people can get complacent about safety. Even brilliant Ivy League students. One moment of inattention can be fatal. Please POIH stop making this an almost triumphant indictment of the University.</p>
<p>I thought about that for a moment, but believe it is extremely unlikely (and illegal). Let’s take that line of thought further. This would mean that Yale believed that the risks associated with the operation of machining equipment at night were of such magnitude that it no longer can meet its duty of care to its own students and wishes to discharge its own liability. That would be both astonishing and incredibly reckless. The students need access to the equipment to perform university sponsored research, but they can only get access to the necessary equipment by waiving the university’s liability and taking on the risks themselves. That would be truly devilish! No student would be able to opt out signing the waiver or they would risk not graduating on time. That would make the agreement unenforceable. Furthermore such an agreement is probably illegal. While students are not technically employees of universities, they are clearly under faculty direction (which are university personnel) when conducting research. Employers cannot discharge liability on employees or other persons under their direction.</p>
<p>Yes, this is alarming and something all college machine shops should examine - does this go on elsewhere?</p>
<p>I also agree that the idea of an after hours waiver against liability is not a possibility in this case. Yale or any other college would never take the risk.</p>
<p>I wonder if it was “loosey goosey” and more experienced students were allowed informal after hours privileges in the machine shop - informally okayed by the shop manager, but not sanctioned by Yale - what liability then? If I had to bet, this is what happened here, and this must go on elsewhere.</p>
<p>Well put and that is what I’ve been wanting to say but have been so mad at Yale for not providing operational supervision for the lab that I’m unable to write concisely.
When I raised the difference between community college and Yale I wanted to convey that Yale have all the resources to have round the clock supervision for it’s labs.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>There is no triumphant indictment but I’m really very angry as no parent have to go through this because of negligance at the part of an institute like Yale.</p>
<p>I just can’t imagine the pain the parent of the girl feel because of such insenstivity at the part of Yale.</p>
<p>How do you know that they did not provide operational supervision? The facts have not come out. There are so, so many variables possible that no one can speculate blame at this point. How do we not know that the lab is typically closed during late night hours when no supervisor is available, but this student somehow gained admittance, in some sort of behind the scenes manner that is not authorized? We don’t know any of this stuff, but you seem so quick to blame a whole school? What if some lab tech ‘looked the other way’ and ‘accidentally’ left the door open because they knew some students needed to come in after hours to finish up end of the year projects? Do you blame a whole school for what one person did?</p>
<p>I guess maybe the question should be what would happen in a GM plant if something like this happened? We are assuming a level of “responsibility” on Yale’s part, which assumes the “student” is still a child. But, she is not. However, if GM had a 21 year old die because of the machinery? There would be liability.</p>
<p>Yale will settle, if the parents bring suit. Can you imagine the PR nightmare THAT would be, if they fought it? I’m sure they will offer a settlement before the parents bring a suit. I mean, they aren’t stupid.</p>