Definitely count the double major/minors if you’re trying to figure out the size of the cohort. Classics (especially if you think grad school is part of the plan) lends itself to a minor with Art History, Architectural Studies, Philosophy, Religious Studies, Near Eastern Studies, etc. She will see some or all of these students at some point and at most colleges, they form a very nice “pack”… whether study groups or just informal get togethers.
Agree with the suggestion to check to see how many of the Trinity courses are offered each semester and what the sequence looks like. You can’t predict the future- so a professor can go out on parental leave next Spring and there’s no way to account for that, but a robust course offering can handle one or two professors being on leave, on sabbatical, in Southern Italy on an excavation, etc. Missing courses (even if listed in the catalogue) makes it hard to plan and to fulfill the expectations for grad school.
“Personally, I wouldn’t let the ability to take grad school classes as an undergrad color my decision. Few end up doing that.”
Sorry- virtually EVERYONE in Classics is going to take grad school classes as an undergrad. I did, first semester of my freshman year, and I’m hardly a genius. That’s just the way it is. A visiting professor is giving a seminar on “The origins of democracy in the ancient world”-and your particular interest is on the political system of ancient Rome– you’re taking that class if the university allows it. An econ professor and a classics professor are teaming up to teach a graduate class on the “Economics of slavery in antiquity”– there will be a line out the door of undergrads who want to register. This is how the system works. The undergrad curriculum is designed to cover off the major areas of language, literature, philosophy, architecture. But students will want to do a deep dive into many of the areas covered specifically by the grad program. Especially if they want to take classes in fieldwork for preparation for archaeology. Or have a particular interest in Ovid. Or want to combine classical and modern tragedy for grad study. These will likely require taking grad school classes- and you want to be in a place which encourages these upper level or collaborative pairings.
Trinity is an excellent university so if that’s her preferred environment there shouldn’t be a problem as long as
they offer at least one or two jr/sr level Latin classes each semester
they offer a complete Greek sequence
Departments in correlated classes also offer enough classes (history, literature, philosophy, archeology..)
they have a strong study abroad program (definitely a specific semester-long, preferably 2×1 semester in Greece and in a part of the Roman empire or a full year, with relevant classes)
Ideally they’d offer beginners classes in Italian (or French, for grad school) and have an agreement with UTSA for one graduate class senior year
Check that they have faculty interested in supervising an undergraduate thesis - should be par for the course but reaching out to the department/asking for a visit, sitting on a course, talking with current seniors might put your/her mind at rest or help her draw a conclusion wrt Plan II.
Full disclosure: I grew up in Austin rooting for the Longhorns, and in recent years I’ve visited Trinity several times with my D22/D26 and done a fair amount of research on the school. I also provided some research assistance for a family friend whose kid was admitted to UT for Plan II/Classics a few years ago and strongly considered it before choosing an Ivy.
I love small schools in general, and specifically I love Trinity and sort of regret that it finished second for both D22 and D26 - I think each of them would have been happy there had they not been admitted to their first-choice schools. In this kind of big-school/small-school dilemma, I typically recommend the small school if the student is open to it - even moreso in this case where the student appears to prefer the small-school vibe.
With that said…this is the one time where I might deviate from that approach, though it’s a very close call. For a student intending to pursue graduate study in a particular area, the difference between a large department with diverse offerings and small department with few choices is meaningful. D22 has experienced this, having majored in a tiny department (2-3 grads per year) at an outstanding university that is nonetheless not particularly known for her field. She found that as a Jr/Sr, there were very few courses available to even complete her major requirements, much less meet her specific interests. At one point, only 6 upper-division courses were being offered in her major for a certain term - she had taken 4 of them already in prior semesters, and another was offered by a professor that she didn’t care to see again. She ended up relying on cross-listed classes in affiliated departments, some of which required special administrative approvals to count for her degree requirements. It won’t end up being an issue long-term, as she is aiming for professional school rather than an academic career, but if she had chosen to pursue a Ph.D, I think it would have been difficult from her current spot.
I also think that, as much as I love the small-school atmosphere, it is sometimes possible to replicate many aspects of this with a small cohort of like-minded students inside a very large university. The difficulty of doing this is often understated, as a lone student may spend years trying to identify and locate these needles in a haystack of tens of thousands. But here, Plan II and Classics provide two overlapping but distinct cohorts right from Day 1. I might opt for the academic experience of UT and trust that Plan II/Classics will provide the small community feeling that is usually the province of small colleges.
Has she compared the course offerings, course content, and (if it matters to her) class sizes within the classics department and other related departments (e.g. philosophy, history) at each school?
I think a clear next step is looking at the specific course offerings/sequences offered at each school. I remember Trinity offering Greek only in the spring semester (beginner/intermediate/advanced) but more frequent upper-level Latin, and also the opportunity to do independent study with professors when possible.
We’ve visited both schools already but I will encourage her to take advantage of any additional ‘admitted student’ days and also to reach out to professors wrt course offerings.
I got my bachelor’s degree at UT Austin many years ago. I have family & friends with kids there right now. No matter what you think the administrative headaches will be, they would likely be worse. This comes from my experience and what I am told from students currently attending.
I do think an argument can be made that dealing with a mammoth bureaucracy during these formative years is a great foundational experience for life as a young professional. However, you know you daughter better than us, and it really sounds like Trinity is the way to go.
Right now she says Stanford is the only school that, if she got in, she might choose over the Texas options. We hear from them in March/April. Stanford would likely be about 3x the cost, and she realizes that plays a role in the decision.
At least the choice is simpler
Since UT seems to be polarizing, maybe she can spend a whole day on campus - walking, people watching, checking out the surrounds (homelessness, etc).
On the other hand – LACs tend to do very well in grad school admissions for good reasons, so the small departments can’t be too much of a disadvantage. You can’t just use the official count of majors as a measure of the strength of a department, because this statistic doesn’t include minors, second majors, or people taking a class because it satisfies a requirement in a different department (like history or art history). And keep in mind that a Classics department will have affiliated faculty from different home departments: comparative literature, religious studies, history, art/art history, perhaps languages if these are housed in a separate department, etc. So the offerings are greater than they might seem at first glance. Faculty in LACs also tend to have more flexibility to develop new classes to diversify offerings (there are more bureaucratic hoops to jump through in a large university). My D and two of her cousins are/were (one just graduated) all Classics majors at three different LACs, and none of them have ever lacked for new and interesting courses to take.
@Publisher OP applied to Bryn Mawr, Holy Cross and Haverford but sounds like none are in contention…just UT, Trinity, and Stanford….if I understand what @barleycup stated above.
My daughter is a current senior at Trinity, and has had a phenomenal experience. She was also in a huge TX high school, and although played in the orchestra, just did not love the experience of a such a large campus. She has thrived and blossomed at Trinity. The professors have all been extremely accessible, and her psychology professor is actively helping with post-bacc research positions before she charges on ahead for a phd. It has been a very nurturing environment. I believe that your daughter should follow her instincts.
Another thing to add is that Trinity is a very respected, and academically challenging university and has risen in rankings over the past couple of years (#37 LAC). It is a worthy contender to UT Austin (but I am of course biased!).
Next week, she’s going to spend a day on the Trinity campus for selection for the Tower Scholarship (4-year full ride). That includes sessions with student and faculty, even eating at the dining hall, so maybe that experience will provide some clarity.
