Trying to get a new puppy...

icedragon · June 23, 2012, 2:35pm

We got our toy poodle 14 years ago from a breeders ad in the paper. We had been looking for about a year before we got her (wanted a red one) all over the US (had relatives looking and whatnot).

She is a decendent of one of the poodles my great grandmother bred (brought poodles into the area). We found this out when we looked at her bloodline.

Overall she has had good health. She did develop cataracts but those were removed via eye surgon (she was 9 at the time and still had a lot of go in her). Now one eye has glacoma, but its under control with eye drops and such.

I would do it again given the chance. Shes the best dog i’ve ever been around.

bookiemom · June 23, 2012, 5:53pm

German shepherd puppies are quite a handful. We are on our third one right now. He is 10 months old and requires a lot of attention and exercise. They don’t do well being left alone a lot as puppies. I agree it’s not a breed to get if you haven’t had much experience with dogs or if you don’t have a lot of time to spend on training, exercising, and just being with the dog most of the time.

You can find a good puppy from a hobby breeder, often from a newspaper ad. I have purchased two Schnauzer puppies that way and both were great dogs. It’s good to meet the puppy’s parents. You do need to learn about the breed you are considering.

There is a theory right now about getting puppies at six and a half to seven weeks. That is supposed to be a time of the puppy being more open to bonding. I got my current Schnauzer and my shepherd at about seven weeks and both have turned out well.

Be sure your parents have lots of time to spend with a puppy (or older dog) and really want to do this. Dogs really do require a lot of time, energy, and often significant costs at the vet.

icedragon · June 23, 2012, 6:23pm

also, on the 6 week thing, my pup was 6 weeks when we got her. She was smaller than a soda can and we had to fly back to our state with her in a carrier under the seat. They, the airport people, wanted to put her through the scanner thingy, but we took her out and carried her though the metal detactor.

paying3tuitions · June 23, 2012, 8:32pm

You’re gettiing plenty of advice! I’ll just add two points from experience:

<ul>
<li>If a dog has one half German Shepherd, he’ll look enough like one to appear to be a protective type animal. I had a Shep-Alaskan Malamute whom most people assumed was a Shepherd. Since I was a single female in a tough location then, I think that was helpful. BUT…I took her to get spayed, then all the vet care needed, and most importantly: Obedience Classes. They are fun and will change your entire relationship with a dog. Go every week and do the practice exercises at home.</li>
<li>Bring the younger sibs to the obedience classes, so they see the approach. Let them do a lot of the practice. My 14-y.o. came with me, and he learned to become appropriately authoritative with another dog. That means he gave clear, consistent commands in a stern voice with accompanying hand-signals each timee; it didn’t mean he hit the dog!! It was a growth experience for him as a young teen, and it became a family project to train the puppy well. </li>
<li>The issue with adopting older animals is you want to ask at the Animal Shelter what they know about the animal’s past. Was in one home? Was it a loving home? Was he picked up as a stray and in what condition? It’s one thing to adopt an animal as the rescue/right thing. That’s what I’ve done my entire adult life. But you also don’t want to have to undo an animal’s fears if they’ve been abused or abandoned…leave that for more experienced adopters. I think you can be honest with the Shelter staff and describe your family. Visit a shelter many times until you think you have a match. You can take the animal out in the shelter yard to get a sense of whether you feel comfortable together. </li>
</ul>

The reason people go for puppies, aside from their adorableness, is they have a clean slate and don’t have to worry about what’s been the animal’s life as a “teenager.”

Ideal shelter adoption situation: you find an animal that belonged to a good family who could no longer afford it; or an elderly person who had to move into a retirement home…and adopt that animal. To me, ideal is one year old, already housebroken, and from a single safe home! A dog is not an adult (emotionally!) until age 2, so if you find one around a year old, that’s like bringing home a teenager – still time to make an impression and get some training in so it adapts to your home. More people want to adopt a cute puppy from a shelter, so if yuou’re open to an young adult dog (say, 8 months to 2 years old…), you have an advantage. They don’t have those cute puppy eyes, but yes, you can get a sense of their personality.

Take your time; it’s a big decision. Keep researching.

romanigypsyeyes · June 23, 2012, 8:57pm

I whole-heartedly echo everything in p3t’s post. ESPECIALLY the whole family being involved in training. Dogs are like children- they need consistency. Even after a combined 120+ years of dog ownership between people in my family, we are still too lax on that one lol.

Consolation · June 23, 2012, 8:58pm

German SHEPHERDs–not shepards–are NOT a good breed for beginner owners.

All that stuff about “both parents on premises” is complete BS, and in fact often a sign of an incompetent, backyard breeder or minor-league puppy mill. You will find that more often than not, really good breeders have selected a stud dog who lives across the country. Mixed breeds all too often carry the genetic diseases of BOTH breeds, only their badly-bred parents weren’t tested for any of the above. This is particularly true of the so-called “designer” dogs, such as goldendoodles. Since NO reputable breeder of poodles or goldens will deliberately breed a mutt, or allow the puppies they breed to be bred in this way, the parents of such dogs are by definition inferior specimens of their breed, usually with no history of health testing at all (much less the 7+ generations of health testing common amongst well-bred dogs.)

I agree that no really good breeder would sell a puppy to this family, as described by the OP. I would strongly suggest that they get an alarm system, not a dog. If the family really wants to have a canine companion, they should either go to a shelter and adopt, or identify a breed that they can cope with, and go to the rescue organization for that breed and adopt. The latter course of action is particularly wise, since the rescuers normally foster the dogs for a while and get to know them, so that they can recommend a dog based on known temperament.

calmom · June 24, 2012, 1:59am

My last 3 dogs have been shelter dogs, adopted at between 7-12 months old. I think it’s important that dogs be socialized well as puppies, but I don’t think that there’s any distinction between the owner/dog “bond” with an older dog and with dogs adopted as puppies. Most dogs really like people, and bond very quickly with the people in their household. Bonding is enhanced when the humans spend a lot of time engaging with the dogs. I mean, basically dogs like to play and be petted, groomed and cuddled. They’ll respond to loving treatment with love.

My last 3 rescues have all been strays; no history. Also no problem – they are sweet, loving dogs. My local shelter allows time to visit with the dog in a room before adopting – so there is an opportunity to meet the dog and get a sense of its temperament and personality. I guess I have rejected many more dogs than I’ve adopted (kind of like college admissions, ha, ha, but with somewhat better odds) – you don’t know everything, but you can get a sense of how responsive the dog is, how friendly, etc. My shelter also allows visitors to walk around the kennels to decide which dogs they want to meet – I always preferred to meet the dogs that were NOT barking their heads off when I walked by.

Obviously there are some dog who have been abused who would not make good pets, but rescue organizations and shelters tend to do some screening and also will try to make a good match between owner and pet temperament. For example, the shelter has a questionnaire that asks about owner lifestyle (activity level, whether there is someone at home during the day, etc.).

The problem is that a newbie dog owner is generally as bad or worse at puppy training than “unknown” – unless the new owner is really committed to putting in a lot of effort to learn about dog training. Issues like housebreaking can be particularly difficult to repair once a dog has gotten into some bad habits. I mean, a dog “learns” bad habits every time it gets away with something that feels good to it – so if it poops in the bedroom closet 3 times without getting caught in the act, you end up with a dog that thinks the closet is a great place to poop. An experienced puppy owner will know that the secret to housebreaking is to never give the dog the opportunity to mess up in the first place – for example, by crate training – but the new dog owner ends up making all their mistakes on new puppy #1.

Anyway, my point is that I wouldn’t worry too much about a dog with unknown “history” --the point is to look at what the dog is like currently. I feel its a lot easier to judge temperament of an adolescent or adult dog than to figure out how a 6-week old puppy is likely to turn out down the line.

Seahorsesrock · June 24, 2012, 4:08am

We adopted an older white Shepard, she was ten and had been dumped pmnthe street. She had been part of a puppy mill. She was a mess.

Please please please do not support puppy mills.

And pure bread does not mean less vet bios, it often means more due in breeding.

Get a rescue dog. Please.

Seahorsesrock · June 24, 2012, 4:12am

From my experience, most of my dog owner freedoms have recess, many just guessing at the breeds of the dogs parents, and these dogs are amazing. I tended to rescue border collies as I understand their needs. Others rescue grey hounds. But please try and rescue a dog

And get your dogs fixed

HisGraceFillsMe · June 24, 2012, 2:26pm

OP, you might want to watch a few episodes of “It’s Me Or the Dog”. I’m watching one right now in particular where a woman bought a Neopolitan Mastiff (90 pounds at 11 months, and he’s only growing…) for protection and he’s completely terrorizing the house and the family.

I know this has been said, but as soon as you get the dog, training is vital. And it is vital for the whole family, not just the dog. Everyone should be comfortable working with the dog, since it is supposed to be like a member of your family.

When we got our younger yellow Lab, we brought her home around maybe 5-6 weeks. She was tiny. She would walk maybe a few feet, then curl up and go to sleep.

I also agree that seeing the breeder interact with their dogs is crucial. The breeder we got our yellow Lab from actually breeds famous showdogs, and it’s almost magic to see him work with his dogs. He has dogs running everywhere, and he loves being with them, but as soon as he gives a command the dogs jump to obey (as they should).

I agree that you might want to avoid a puppy unless the whole family wants to work on training and upkeep of the dog.

And please make sure your parents are up to the cost. We took our dog to the vet a while ago and paid $300 because she had a skin/ear infection and fleas. Vet visits are generally much more expensive than a human going to the doctor. I’ve seen quite a few dogs be sick or in bad condition because their owners didn’t think about vet costs.

bookiemom · June 24, 2012, 6:24pm

I disagree with Consolation in post 46 about “both parents on premises.” I met the parents of all three of the Schnauzers I have owned. The last two were people with just one litter. They were not puppy mills. This Schnauzer is a wonderful dog, very sturdy and healthy and nice termperament.

We also bought our previous Shepherd from a reputable breeder with several litters of puppies per year and met both parents. Not every puppy situation is a scam.

MissGen · June 24, 2012, 7:14pm

ETA: This is a massive wall of text! I’m sorry. I wrote it very quickly. Hopefully it’s not too dense, but please read anyway!

My dog is an eleven year old GSD and dog stuff is sort of my passion. I try to stay out of the parent section but I couldn’t resist.

Rescuing or adopting a dog is always, always a wonderful choice to make. There are a lot of dogs that aren’t necessarily damaged goods and often purebreds if that’s what you’re looking for. There’s also many puppies if that’s what you’re looking for.

There are good reasons for choosing a breeder. A good breeder will have genetically tested their breeding stock. ESPECIALLY with German Shepherds, they should be able to tell you about the hip screenings of both parents because there are so many issues. They should have documentation of this. There’s some more predictability in the dog’s health background. If you really love certain breeds, sometimes it’s your only option.

This is something that usually surprises people – but the best pet dog breeder is some who actively shows their dogs and is respected in the showing world. If you only want a pet, I believe firmly in conformation breeders. (People who breed working lines of dogs are awesome, but a shepherd with a very high drive may not be appropriate for a new owner). There’s a few reasons:

1) They are people who are very passionate about the breed. Most good dog breeders and showers aren’t making any profit of note off the dogs they breed. They’re in it for the love of the dogs and the sport.

2) They are people who are very invested in the genetics of the breed. For example, there’s a genetic disease that’s common in certain lines of Golden Retriever, Addison’s, that cannot be medically screened for. It can result in absolute tragedy for owners. Good Golden breeders know which lines have a history of Addison’s and will avoid them like the plague because they are passionate and because the dogs they breed are often going to be the next dogs they show. I’ve also heard many stories about dog breeders going above and beyond, at no personal benefit, to volunteer their dogs as samples to veterinary genetic researchers in the hopes of addressing medical issues in their breed.

3) They are creating a predictable dog. Conformation dog breeders are breeding to a preset standard that includes both physical and temperamental aspects. While any pup is an individual, getting a dog who is bred to their standard is helpful in predicting their eventual size and their eventual behavior. Most breeders also evaluate the temperament of their puppies when they’re young. I know some breeders actually will choose your puppy for you instead of vice versa because they’re good at figuring out which dogs will fit your lifestyle.

4) Conformation breeders are invested beyond the sale. Breeders know each other and their reputations ride on how they treat their dogs. Just about every conformation breeder I know has a policy that they will take one of their dogs back at ANY point, no matter the situation. I know breeders who will give vouchers on their dogs where they will lower the price of their dogs if you get them into basic obedience training because they know that’ll give the dog the best start on life possible. One breeder I spoke to explains to people that, when they buy one of her puppies, they are buying her as a consultant, someone who will always be there to give advice and to help if it’s needed. A good breeder will be there for you for life.

My advice is to see if you can find a local dog show and to show up watch people, and ask questions! Talk to GSD breeders if you’re sure that’s your breed of choice. Talk to other people. Get their advice.

That being said, really, really consider if you want a German Shepherd. They are wonderful dogs. They are also very active, very smart dogs that will get into trouble if you don’t account for them, they have high prey drives, and they will shed on everything you own. They need at least weekly brushing and when they’re blowing coat, it’ll look like you killed a large, furry animal whenever you’re done. A young German Shepherd will need a lot of exercise and a lot of training. I think you should really look into breeds and look into what you want as a family. What fits your lifestyle best? There are several websites online that create breed suggestions based on responses to survey questions. The AKC website also has basic breed standards listed.

Also consider if you want a puppy. Many times, breeders will adopt out older, retired dogs. They’ll come to you with a little training and some more maturity. There are also great adult dogs in shelters and even breed-specific rescues if you’re really set on wanting a particular breed.

Regardless of what choices you make at this point, there’s a few things that are good advice for any dog you get:

<ul>
<li>Get involved in obedience training/puppy classes. They’re usually not very expensive and they’re a great way of learning to relate to your dog and train it. </li>
<li>Read a lot on puppy raising. There are SO many great books you can find at Borders or your local pet store. Sometimes what people think is effective in training a dog can be very damaging. </li>
<li>Read up on dog training and positive reinforcement methods. </li>
</ul>

I’m including some links that I think are really helpful below. Please feel free to contact me if there’s anything I can do to help!

[Puppy</a> & Dog Forums](<a href=“http://www.dogforums.com%5DPuppy”>http://www.dogforums.com) - My favorite dog forum. Full of passionate people that really know what they’re talking about, a lot more than me. They also have a whole section for first time/new dog owners. 
<a href=“http://www.openpaw.org/PDFs/BEFORE_YouGetYourPuppy.pdf[/url]”>http://www.openpaw.org/PDFs/BEFORE_YouGetYourPuppy.pdf</a> - A free PDF from Dr. Ian Dunbar, an amazing veterinarian and dog behaviorist, on what to do before you get your puppy. Dr. Dunbar’s personal website is dogstardaily.com.
[Finding</a> a good dog breeder](<a href=“Finding a good dog breeder | Puppy Forum and Dog Forums”>Finding a good dog breeder | Puppy Forum and Dog Forums) - Signs of a good dog breeder AND signs of a bad dog breeder. PLEASE read this! It’s so good.

I’ll post some more if I think of them because I’m about to pop out and do something. I really hope this helped!

Onward · June 24, 2012, 7:36pm

Miss Gen, what a great post!

Consolation · June 25, 2012, 12:03am

People with “just one litter”? Do you mean people who bought two random-bred pet-quality dogs and bred them? That’s your classic backyard breeder. (Hint: “AKC registered” means absolutely zero when it comes to suitability for breeding.) Did those people with “just one litter” have a contract for you to sign that said you must spay/neuter your puppy unless it was a show prospect? Did the contract state that you must return the puppy to them at ANY point in its life if you could not keep it? Did they microchip the puppy and make sure that if it ever turned up in a shelter they would be notified? Did they discuss with you the generations of health testing behind their dogs and describe what they were breeding for? {Hint: “nice pets” is not a good answer.) Did they show their dogs in obedience, agility, conformation, or anything else?

Somehow I doubt it. If I am wrong, I apologize.

Sure, SOME good, responsible breeders have both parents on premises in a particular breeding. But virtually ALL ignorant backyard breeders do. And they are responsible for filling shelters with their output of random-bred puppies sold to unscreened buyers whose only qualification for owning a puppy was that the check didn’t bounce. (I once read that the majority of puppies sold in the US do not remain in the same home a year later.) Responsible breeders take every possible step to ensure that the puppies they produce are healthy, and that they do NOT go on to produce more unwanted puppies that may end up in kill shelters

I totally agree with everything MissGen posted above.

bookiemom · June 25, 2012, 12:34am

Slow down, here, Consolation. That’s a little hostile. I don’t think any of my dogs came from “ignorant backyard breeders.” My current dog came from a man who purchased a pair of Schnauzers from a reputable breeder as a breeding pair. He wanted to get started as a breeder and this was the first litter his pair had produced. I met the parents, saw where the puppies were raised in his kitchen, and met his little granddaughter who helped socialize the puppies. We did not have that sort of contract, although I did with my shepherd who came from a breeder who has bred shepherds for over 30 years.

So yes, it is best to buy a puppy from a reputable, well-established breeder who has these sorts of procedures in place. But most breeders have to start somewhere. Your attitude is rather elitist.

Consolation · June 25, 2012, 8:41am

Elitist? No, my attitude is formed by a desire to see dogs not treated as commodities and dumped in kill shelters by puppy millers and by backyard breeders like the man you bought your dog from. Hostile? Yes, I am extremely hostile to that sort of person. The problem is that even people who mean well contribute to the millions of dogs that are killed every year.

He “wanted to get started in breeding”? You mean he wanted to start churning out puppies for a little $$ on the side. Selling them completely unprotected without contracts to unscreened buyers. (Your dog was lucky. Many will not be.) Real breeders realize that simply having intact reproductive organs does not make a dog breed-worthy. The way people “get started in breeding” is that they start with a DOG who comes from excellent stock, participate in dog activities with it–field trials, agility, obedience, conformation, tracking, carting, hunting, herding, you name it–THEN they may think about breeding it…or more likely about getting a puppy that is considered a breeding prospect, which of course still has to prove itself. Every bozo who produces puppies is not a "breeder."The mere concept of buying a “breeding pair” of dogs makes me ill. It’s treating dogs like livestock.

dmd77 · June 25, 2012, 10:42am

Consolation is dead on. The sales contract is a good indicator of the kind of breeder you are dealing with. You want a contract that requires the breeder to take back the dog if there are problems. It shows that the breeder truly cares about the puppies, not just about the money.

I have three standard poodles. The oldest comes from an irresponsible breeder who didn’t pay attention to health–she has cost me about $10K over and beyond her purchase price in the 8 years I’ve had her. She has hip dysplasia in both hips, allergies, inflammatory bowel disease, and has survived skin hemangiosarcoma. The latest $1000 vet visit was for benign tumors on her eyelids. Her temperament is lovely, however. The breeder continues to breed the line and I know of six dogs related to her that have one or more of the same genetic diseases.

My other two poodles come from a breeder who breeds for health. My 6 year old has had exactly one unscheduled vet visit, when she dislocated her toe playing at the dog park. Total cost, $32, because the vet massaged it back into alignment. The puppy is only a year old, so no unexpected vet visits.

cottonwood513 · June 25, 2012, 12:56pm

It is spelled like this: German Shepherd Dog. In case it’s on the SAT or ACT.

White is a disqualifying fault in German Shepherds, white shepherds cannot be shown in conformation classes at AKC shows. They can be registered (if their parents are) and shown in obedience, agility and rally. So if someone is breeding white shepherds on purpose, that is a red flag.

To buy a puppy from a good breeder, you have to meet their criteria for giving the puppy a good home for life. Just as a shelter would. Both sometimes use newspaper ads.

somemom · June 25, 2012, 2:14pm

For your sanity’s sake and for the sake of the dog, do more research. We have had large (600-110#) very active dogs for the last 30 years, we’ve lived everywhere from small homes to acreage and it is very clear to me that the best results are when YOU the owner can take a dog out for a walk and training every single day. Nearly every single day for the past 10-15 years someone in our family has walked the dog…every single day. Rainy, walked, snow, walked, hot, walked, sleet, walked, grumpy, walked, feeling poorly, walked. EVERY SINGLE DAY. That is owning a dog, that is the kind of responsibility you are taking on. Why do we do this? Because it is better for the dog which makes it better for us. We happen to have a high energy breed and if we don’t walk those 3-6 miles a day, we are sorry, many times we take another short walk or two now & again, maybe early morning or late night.

Some breeds are better at being left alone than others, check that out. Some breeds will be better for your situation. We have a gorgeous breed of dog, many compliments, but when people tell me they want one, I tell them all the hard parts.

Dog training classes are really for the owner more than the dog. I just took a dog class, despite 30 years of dog knowledge and having been training him for the past year. We actually got bumped up to intermediate based on what we have done, but in watching the teacher with everyone, there is not a dog which does not obey her, some faster than others, but really she is teaching the owner how to best and most efficiently work with their dog. I am thinking about doing some agility so wanted my guy to get some group experience with other dogs. It was very clear that the training is for the owner.

The more time and energy and effort your family is willing to put into the project, the better you will do. We have a family member who recently bought a 4 month old puppy, I think from a pet store. Everyone told this elderly couple NOT to get a puppy, we all suggested adopting a mature dog to avoid all the chewing (my dog still chews madly twice a day), the potty training, the general puppy energy and training. Nope, had to have a puppy, six months later it is still not potty trained because they are not able or willing to do the round the clock reinforcement needed. All you have to do in order to potty train is take the dog out every hour or so ans praise it every time it goes, but they are not doing that and that poor little puppy is peeing in the house despite having a doggy door it knows how to use, they simply have not reinforced what they want.

Dogs want to fit in the pack, they want to make you happy, but they need to know what you expect. They cannot read your mind. Your Dad may need some teaching as to how to train and work with a dog in this culture, your Mom may need reinforcement in order to successfully work with the dog and especially to make sure your Dad buys in.

CollectivSynergy · June 25, 2012, 2:35pm

The quality of the breeder doesn’t always mean everything. I bought my dog from a BYB (I knew that going in), but only because I got to inspect both parents and the puppy. The father was a titled dog but not with the current owner, and they all checked out for the most common sheltie defects as far as I could tell (granted, I’m no vet but I did study 2 books on sheltie care alone). It’s a definite risk, but not a huge concern with the relatively healthy purebreds, which a GSD is not.

I agree with those here that have pointed out a GSD is not the dog for you. I would also add shelter dogs to that. Yes, dealing with a puppy is more work at first. But a shelter dog can be unpredictable, and if the goal is to get a big watchdog I’d recommend against it. Your family are already rookies at taking care of and disciplining a dog, which is made doubly difficult if it’s already 60+ pounds. Adopting is admirable, but under no circumstances would I recommend the combination of both factors for your family.

If anything, I’d suggest a black Lab. They can be just as scary as a Dobie in the dark, and are far less aggressive and more easy-going. But this whole deal makes me uncomfortable, getting a dog solely for protection is like having a kid solely to hoe a field. I would make sure your parents are VERY comfortable getting a dog because soon your siblings will be out of the house and they’ll be taking care of it alone.

Trying to get a new puppy...

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