<p>ilovedcollege said: " Scan away. Pat away . . . how soon we forget that no successful plane bombings have occurred since then . The bad guys have tried. And they have been foiled . . . So TSA, scan me or pat me down."</p>
<p>well . . .
1- the foiled plots were discovered the old fashioned way: tips, lucky breaks, and good intelligence, NOT by pat downs.
2- the Israelis have had multiple 9/11s and they choose to use different techniques than we do . . . and they are successful, right? Why not do it their way?
3- I’d rather us spend more time and energy on intellgence than on the false notion that we can inspect our way to air safety; it IS a chouice and we are making the kinds of choices that bring us MORE danger, not less
4- so you’re OK with tossing out the 4th Amendment to the Constitution because you think it makes you safer? How do you deal with this language: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons . . . against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause . . .” Seems like you are on a slippery slope that you are on here? Do you really think it’s reasonable to pat down every air passenger?</p>
<p>dntw8up: It is also permissible to require those who are not wearing elastic to remove pants/skirt and submit to an enhanced pat down while covered by a flimsy sheet.</p>
<p>northeastmom:Has this actually been done to passengers? I never heard of this being done.</p>
<p>dntw8up:I don’t personally know anyone who has been required to remove clothes, but then the option has only been available to TSA this month, and my acquaintances are but an infinitesimal fraction of the flying public. </p>
<p>It is however, within TSA’s overreaching power to demand the removal of a skirt. Earlier this month the ACLU of Massachusetts verified the TSA’s stance and published “Know Your Options at the Airport,” which in part states, “Women in tight skirts that don’t allow an agent to feel the thigh area may be asked to remove the skirt in a private screening area and will be given a gown or towel to put on.” [:: The</a> ACLU of Massachusetts ::](<a href=“http://aclum.org/tsa/kyo_airport.php]:: The”>http://aclum.org/tsa/kyo_airport.php)</p>
<p>Elastic waist skirts are inherently fuller than many other types of skirts, but of course the drawback is that TSA may, as it did in my case, exercise its supposed right to stretch the elastic taut and peer down the front and back of the inside of the skirt.</p>
<p>“if you refuse the procedures and decide not to fly, you will still be subject to arrest …”</p>
<p>I’ve read that the THEORY behind this is that they don’t want terrorists to abort the security queue (because they’re “carrying”). Apparently TSA thinks terrorists are stupid … a view that is inconsistent with the many imaginative operations terrorists have carried out.</p>
<p>SamuraiLandshark, from my limited experience: El Al security personnel interview each and every passenger. Why are you travelling to Israel? How long are you staying? Where are you going within the country? Have you been there before? Are you Jewish? What synagogue do you belong to? Do you have friends in the country? Are you staying with them? Do you speak Hebrew? Etc etc etc. At least, those are the types of questions we’ve gotten as Jewish US caucasians. The questions are in part incidental; the screeners/interviewers are looking at you to see how you react, to look at your body language. You then stay nearby your luggage while it’s run through the x-ray machine. Security people also open your luggage and check it visually and by hand. You and your carryons then go to a secured waiting area to wait for your flight. </p>
<p>I’m sure there’s a lot more going on under the hood that I didn’t notice or see. </p>
<p>James Fallows just posted a whole slug of interesting comments. For example, someone who works in the executive branch points out that if you’re going to see the president in a public forum, you go through a metal detector. No removing shoes, no backscatter.</p>
<p>My son has sent me two emails about not going through the scatter scanners for medical reasons so I printed out the letter written by the doctors at UCSF and I will request a pat down. He works at a large university medical center.</p>
<p>I just returned from a trip with my 81 year old mother. She had the aggressive pat down both ways because she sets off the alarm with her hip and ankle implants. Such a sad scene would be helped if the agents were at least neutral to friendly instead of nasty. It was very, very uncomfortable watching her being groped in intimate places for 5 minutes at a time. They took her into the public glass cage before I had a chance to ask for a private screening, but I’m not going to let that happen again. I don’t know what the solution is, but we are all protected from frail old ladies!</p>
<p>The sensitive technology to detect traces of explosives has existed for ages: it is called mass spectrometry (my analytical chem prof would have kicked me out of his class if I said “spectroscopy” ;)). The govt decided not to look that way because the makers of the body scanners were very successful at lobbying the government to invest millions of $$$ in their flawed tech (and I gather that Mr. Chertoff was an adviser to one of these co’s).</p>
<p>That was our experience with El Al as well, FWIW.</p>
<p>In my recent travels to Egypt and Saudi Arabia, I went through screening that was pretty similar to US screening - go through a metal detector, remove belts and metal objects, computer out of bag - the only difference being that we did not have to remove our shoes. Pretty standard stuff. This included Saudi Arabian Airlines, which I flew from Jeddah to Cairo.</p>
<p>So, would anyone have been upset about being delayed and being patted down and luggage hand-searched as what happened to me 10 days ago in Frankfurt, Germany? (Unattended baggage left near security, no owner came to claim) I mean, it’s so horribly intrusive and all.</p>
<p>The solution is obvious. Allow profiling. Instead, the whole thing is an exercise in political correctness, inspecting every tenth passenger, even if it’s an 80 year old cripple lady. We certainly wouldn’t want to inconvenience a 25 year old guy named Mohammed returning from his fifth trip to Pakistan…</p>
<p>I got an enhanced pat-down a couple of weeks ago in Reagan National Airport. I must admit it was startling because I had not heard about it and thought I was going to get an old-style pat-down. I would describe as having been “goosed in the crotch.”</p>
<p>I’m of two minds about it. I didn’t like getting goosed, but I’d like getting blown out of the sky even less.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I’ll go along with anything that really adds safety. When El Al says to show up 3 hours early to go through their security procedure, I’m down with that. If there’s abandoned baggage AND there’s intelligence (of both kinds ) that says that this is something that has to be investigated by taking a very close look at everyone else in the airport, that’s fine. I only get twitchy when I’m told I have to go through security procedures that don’t add bang for the buck. So to speak.</p>
<p>I’m pretty darn liberal but profiling is the only thing that makes sense to me. NOT searching every Arabic person who comes by, but targeting people for extra screening who fit profiles of people who might be a problem. (I don’t know how to define that but security experts do . . . most of whom have argued for years that random screenings are a waste of resources.)</p>
<p>I know it’s easy to be “flip” with the “get over it, just don’t fly, take a train,” etc … but for some of us, like myself (who was sexually abused for six years as a child) even the thought of these pat downs is causing me anxiety. I have fully dealt w/ my issues, been thru counseling, and rarely ever have issues w/ ptsd anymore. But the thought of me, or my 19 year old daughter having to go thru this intimate, invasive violation is frightening. And yes, I know all the reasons why … I’m not saying we shouldn’t be careful. But folks need to be a little more sensitive when they spout off “jokes” with this issue. For some of us, this is not easy. AT ALL. </p>
<p>zebes, who would take soldiers w/ machine guns and dogs any day over this …</p>
<p>Foreign affairs reporter Michael Totten wrote in the NY Post about El Al security. The comments about the article on his blog give more examples of how El Al processes people.</p>
<p>I was listening to a talk radio show this afternoon when a female attorney called in and told the host about what happened to her client yesterday in Atlanta. The 68-year old woman has a medical condition that causes incontinence. She wears some type of thick pad to absorb accidents. TSA pulled her aside for the pat-down and when the female TSA agent felt the pad, she became aggressive and asked what it was. The older lady was scared and embarrassed. Instead of escorting her into a private area to search further, the TSA agent called for assistance from a supervisor. Suddenly there were several agents surrounding the old woman and she reached into her pants and removed the pad right there in front of everyone. She got so upset that she had an accident and had to continue on her trip in urine-soaked pants. </p>
<p>The attorney was talking about filing suit based on federal laws preventing an individual from having to disclose any medical conditions and another law making it illegal for anyone to ask someone what their disability is. She cited the example of someone boarding a flight with a service dog. Apparently it’s illegal to ask the person what the disability is that requires the assistance of the dog.</p>
<p>Nice to know that the leadership is at one with the travelers…</p>
<p>From the NYT:
3:37 p.m. | Updated Representative John A. Boehner, soon to be the Speaker of the House, has pledged to fly commercial airlines back to his home district in Ohio. But that does not mean that he will be subjected to the hassles of ordinary passengers, including the controversial security pat-downs.</p>
<p>As he left Washington on Friday, Mr. Boehner headed across the Potomac River to Reagan National Airport, which was bustling with afternoon travelers. But there was no waiting in line for Mr. Boehner, who was escorted around the metal detectors and body scanners, and taken directly to the gate.</p>
) that says that this is something that has to be investigated by taking a very close look at everyone else in the airport, that’s fine. I only get twitchy when I’m told I have to go through security procedures that don’t add bang for the buck. So to speak.</p>
</p>