I do think my younger son probably ended up with better teacher recommendations than the older kid even though objectively he wasn’t quite as good a student. His APUSH teacher asked for so much info from the kids before he’d write a letter, it had better have been a good letter. (He asked things like what was your favorite text book from the AP course and why.)
@Much2learn #297, I really do think you’re being unfair—@Pizzagirl was simply saying that you (unless you’re an ad com type) don’t have access to the information needed to draw a conclusion. That is different from claiming people can’t assess something, it’s simply a claim about whether enough information is available (which is a statistical question, really).
Thank you, dfbdfb. All any of us can ever see are very limited sample sizes - our kids, maybe a few of their classmates, etc.
I would anticipate that there are more elements of class construct than most all of us can imagine.
Some obvious ones would be, athletes, gender by percentage, applicants by area of anticipated major, departments need students to instruct and has to have some sense of balance in line with a schools staffing and resources. Musicians, kids in the other arts, you can’t have an orchestra without having particular instruments represented, or a ballet company without so many ballerinas, first generation students, geographic diversity nationally and globally, legacy admits, scholarship admits. A newly created department/major at a school creates a necessity to match students with it.
These are just some that immediately come to mind, I am sure there are many others.
I have no idea whose direction is influencing the desired class construct. Is it their Board of directors in conjunction with their schools stated mission? I really don’t know, I do believe it would be quite interesting to find out.
I think there’s always a certain level of obnoxiousness and arrogance when people expect because their particular high school always sent (say) 5 kids to Harvard or whatever, that if one year it doesn’t happen, all is Wrong With The Universe or their high school is Being Punished. It’s like they have zero perspective that there are kids constantly being attracted by outreach elsewhere and that, by golly gosh, maybe they’d like to cleanse the palate by admitting the kid from rural Arkansas instead of yet another Leafy Suburban High kid.
A college is a large organization. Like any department in a large organization, the adcoms have specific goals, processes and procedures that are chosen to fit into larger organizational goals, values and missions. I don’t know why one would think any differently about adcoms than about any other department in any organization. They aren’t “going rogue” and deciding to admit only x type of people because that’s all they want.
@RenaissanceMom , that’s so disheartening!
Can the admissions people see that the McDonald’s kid’s dad actually was a millionaire when they were looking through her admission stuff, or is the financial stuff completely separate? Because if I read the essay, then looked over the financial aid stuff, I’d be thinking something was rotten in Denmark…
Thanks for posting this. We have a system in which colleges games the students, students game the colleges, and both sides complain about it.
Well, no student is obligated to play any game he doesn’t want to. I’m not aware that Harvard puts a gun to one’s head to compel one to apply. It’s sort of like arguing it’s unfair all the pressure being in the Olympics places on athletes.
One would think prospective major, or at least the general field of STEM or non-STEM, would be an important consideration for purposes of resource allocation. Yet, some top schools claim not to consider major. Isn’t Harvard one of those? It does make you wonder…
In another thread “Sociology of American Education” quotes an article that discusses the history of the admissions process at Harvard. It is at http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10getting-in. Many of you probably have read this before but I had not. It was eye opening for me. It explains why they want to go away from hard results such as AP tests, SAT/ACT scores and select students holistically based on who they think will be the most successful for the college after they have completed college.
I didn’t read the article, but…this looks to me like it will INCREASE pressure on students to do all kinds of “this looks good on college apps” type activities. Not sure this is a good thing.
Some of the most impressive people I have know in business and in the community were people who didn’t do these kinds of things in HS. Shy, late bloomers, kids who were bullied. My one sibling who HATED HS and really did no activities except a sport (sat the bench), wound up as a fraternity and class president in college. Later received outstanding alum awards from his college when he was a corporate executive and community leader.Bet no one looking at college apps would have seen that coming.
I realize one example (though I know several others) is not significant, I don’t believe for a minute you can tell who will be most successful for a college based on on HS recommendations, activities, essays, etc.
Very old news, @GTAustin , although you seem to be aware of that. 
@FallGirl Students who assume the “HYP or bust” mentality, and assume that such a goal can be gamed (the outcome controlled), already are obsessed with “doing,” and lack an appreciation that who you are (in the assessment of the committee) could be as important as what you do. This is why LOR’s are so important. (Who you are, along with what you do, affects success after college.)
@Pizzagirl “Thank you, dfbdfb. All any of us can ever see are very limited sample sizes - our kids, maybe a few of their classmates, etc.”
Some of us have information about all of our high schools applicants to an individual college. At a large school, that can be 60, 80, maybe more than 100 applicants. In some cases, it becomes quite clear what the school is doing.
Congrats on understanding that you can’t draw much of a conclusion from only 2 or 3 kids though, you are right about that! The mistake is to assume that no one could possibly have more information than you have.
^ actually I know several of those type students having sent 2 kids to HS here in NoVA ( including one to a well known magnet school). I still think there is a case for using hard data such as grades, test scores etc. And LOR’s for a kid who isn’t impressive in HS may not reflect what that kid will ultimately be.
I’m so glad I’m done with all of this!
“Some of us have information about all of our high schools applicants to an individual college. At a large school, that can be 60, 80, maybe more than 100 applicants. In some cases, it becomes quite clear what the school is doing.”
Oh, I didn’t realize you were a GC! My bad.
After meeting various elite school adcoms, I have absolute confidence that they believe they are successful in recruiting/selecting the best class that suites their institutions needs, but I have little faith that any of what they do means much to the long-term success of these kids, other than determining who gets certain kinds of financial aid.
The idea that one can project a lifetime of success or failure from 4 years of high school is asinine, and the only people benefiting from the current system are the adcoms who otherwise would have to find some other means of employment.
In admissions a school cannot alter their processes for the statistical anomaly that occurs later in life for some individuals. I absolutely agree that there are many people who find their inspiration and motivation later and go on to do incredible things, but how would a college assess these possibilities? It can’t be anticipated that they would.
Malcom Gladwell is an exceptional writer and has advanced particular theories that make a lot of sense but they are not without their limitations and flaws. The overriding message that he conveys is a students self esteem is bolstered by success at less difficult schools and being the shining star at those schools is more meaningful than being an average student at a more difficult school. There is logic to that but it is not complete.
The most important take away for any student or parent is that where you go to college does not define you or your potential for success, although it can certainly matter in some fields.
The McDonalds millionaire is not at all likely to get away with receiving needs base aid, I cannot imagine that both parents financial information would not have to be provided to UChicago. Instances like that and the student who seemingly fabricated their essay I don’t believe to be the norm. Academically you can’t really fake things, yes you can grade grub and get tutoring and coaching, hopefully in those instances the LOR’s would negate or balance these type of applicants. I do wonder about what type of pressure GC’s and teachers may be under at exclusive prep schools to provide glowing recommendations for students who may not be deserving of them.
I certainly wish that schools would base their admissions decisions more significantly on assessment of character, I have actually been surprised and pleased with what I have witnessed at Harvard.
They do more than most people believe, a fact which you just confirmed: