Well, my kid is something of a Flooey. She’s really good at what she likes and good at standardized and AP tests. Hates homework and busywork. Most of her lackluster grades are from lack of turning in and completing homework… Could really care less about academic prestige or awards, although…
She thinks she is supposed to be a Zooey. It is slowly dawning on her, though, that she should really try and coax her inner Chloe out…
I agree with Hunt’s categories and do think Doe’s exist. However, I also believe there are high schools like WWP where the Doe’s end up behaving like Zoe’s and stressing as much as the Zoe’s do who attend a less competitive school. At this WWP-type of school, the Zoe’s really can’t keep up the pace because it’s so hard that even the Doe’s are struggling. So maybe these Zoe’s opt out and become Chloe’s. Or yes, maybe their parents start complaining.
But that doesn’t mean they are wrong to complain, because the odds are that even at a top public high school, there aren’t going to be more than a handful of Doe’s. Maybe 1 or 2. So the atmosphere is simply too crazy for 99.9% of the student body. I can think of one of S’s friends who was a Doe in that he did math problems for fun as a youngster, was innately brilliant and could grasp complex ideas very quickly. However, all the accumulated stress of excessive workloads and too little sleep got to him. He had a nervous breakdown and had to take a year off from his studies. So to everyone else, he probably looked like a Zoe trying to be a Doe, but he wasn’t.
I’m so glad my D has no interest in the Ivy League! I had to kind of twist her arm to agree that if an Ivy League school looked like it would be a perfect match for her, she’d at least take a look.
The more I know (her college search is over now) the more I would counsel anyone to just avoid the Ivies and so-called “top tier” altogether except of course for the whatever-their-name-is type that thrives on challenge. As we investigated colleges, I dropped any that used the word “driven” to describe their students. (I made the first cut, according to qualities D had enumerated, and “cooperative not competitive” was definitely a trait she was seeking.
I really don’t have anything against “drive” but “driven” when applied to 18 year olds…don’t know about that!
“It’s my impression, after a number of years posting on CC, that some parents of Zoes (and Chloes, I guess) don’t really believe in the existence of Does. They think that the way to gain admission to highly selective schools is to drive yourself (or your kid) super-hard to the detriment of sleep, friends, and everything else but what “looks good” for those top schools.”
Some of them think they can hire me to work special magic. It doesn’t exist, and I’m not interested in selling the fantasy. But you can find someone out there to sell you anything you want for the right price.
@dfbdfb Sounds like our junior-year daughters could be compatible roommates!
We should be careful that, in castigating Zoe – who has, of course, been set up as a strawman – we don’t demean the hard-worker. If Zoe is only sleeping four hours a night, that’s a problem. It is also a problem if Zoe is doing unethical things in her pursuit of success, or is foregoing real passions in order to cram in another EC or volunteer opportunity. And certainly, kids like Zoe exist.
I suspect, though, that there’s a larger group of suburban, middle-class kids at top schools whose path looks more like this: they were always among the “good” students in the lower grades. In middle/high school, they were placed in the upper track. In some subjects, they took AP classes because that was clearly where they belonged, and where they thrived. In other subjects, it was more of a chore and struggle – but they were able to keep up with the work, and had aspirations of going to the best school possible (and sure, that may reflect a narrow view of “best” - but you know, there’s plenty of reasons to think Harvard’s a pretty fine place to be, if you can manage to get in), so they challenged themselves. Yes, it took extra work, and sometimes meant late nights and stress, but they were generally getting six-seven hours of sleep a night, not four. They focused on a few ECs that they really enjoyed, and while they might have done some of their volunteering or taken part in a couple of additional activities with college in mind, they also recognized volunteering was a good thing to do for its own sake, and found that the summer was long enough that they could have an enjoyable, relaxing summer and still make time for a three or four week academic program at Brown or Yale – a program that, by the way, also had a social component, and which may have been genuinely academically stimulating.
Is that student a drone, or a bright kid who worked hard?
From your description, s/he is a bright kid who worked hard.
Here are the clues: Focused on few ECs that they enjoyed, recognized volunteering as a good thing to do for its own sake (versus just impressing others), still made time to relax / enjoy the summer, enjoyed the social component at a summer academic program.
That’s exceedingly different from some posters on here - who are obsessed with figuring out how they can best position their kid for a handful of schools, and don’t “allow” the kid to organically choose ECs that s/he enjoys.
A bright kid who unfortunately drank the “best school” Kool Aid, instead of being guided by parents and teachers to the right school for her.
In other words, they were chronically sleep deprived. Six hours a night is not nearly enough for an adolescent.
I set up Zoe. She’s not a strawman, and I have no interest in castigating her. My point is that she is working too hard, damaging her health, and we should not have a system that encourages Chloes to become Zoes. It is harmful. It ends up with Zoes, Chloes and Does throwing themselves in front of trains.
^^^ very well said!
<Here are the clues: Focused on few ECs that they enjoyed, recognized volunteering as a good thing to do for its own sake (versus just impressing others), still made time to relax / enjoy the summer, enjoyed the social component at a summer academic program.
That’s exceedingly different from some posters on here - who are obsessed with figuring out how they can best position their kid for a handful of schools, and don’t “allow” the kid to organically choose ECs that s/he enjoys. >
Pizzagirl, we are really speaking different languages her. is important for college admission. - happens anyway, you can’t stop teenagers to do what they want to do. These are two parallel worlds, that have nothing in common.
Example: I am looking currently for the most beneficial business summer school for my D, the school that may boost her chances of college admission. In the meantime, my D. is enjoying her time with her boyfriend 
Parallel worlds
<it ends="" up="" with="" zoes,="" chloes="" and="" does="" throwing="" themselves="" in="" front="" of="" trains.="">
Most children, who commit suicides, crime, abuse alcohol and drugs are not Zoes, Chloes and Does, but children from inner cities who suffer from non-school-related issues.
<my point="" is="" that="" she="" working="" too="" hard,="" damaging="" her="" health,="" and="" we="" should="" not="" have="" a="" system="" encourages="" chloes="" to="" become="" zoes.="" it="" harmful.="">
The same could be said about almost any athlete.
This is such an important discussion. Kids who are naturally Chloes shouldn’t be pushed in the Zoe direction, but there are a number of subtle, pervasive societal forces at work to push Chloes into Zoes, even without conscious tips from adults, i.e. “take as many APs as possible” “join Key Club- it will look good for college”.
In the high-pressure academic communities, the prosperous cities and towns with what we in CC would call “good” schools, students are suffering from the same mental health issues as these inner city kids: depression, crime, substance abuse, anxiety, suicide.
From the thread title report:
A kid who is really tippy top good at standardized tests, who turns in the homework and makes the grades in a full slate of AP classes, top of her class, with some significant ECs but nothing unusual or cool or interesting. No published research, not a concert pianist, not a community organizer. In other words, no “AND” @Hunt or hook to speak of. Gets plenty of sleep and has time for a boyfriend or to chill with her friends, be a teenager.
Is she really a Doe? I used to think so, but the more time I have spent on this site I am less sure.
One of the surprises to me as I have learned more about the process is that the more interesting Zoes and Chloes often get the acceptance over the boring Does.
<in the="" high-pressure="" academic="" communities,="" prosperous="" cities="" and="" towns="" with="" what="" we="" in="" cc="" would="" call="" “good”="" schools,="" students="" are="" suffering="" from="" same="" mental="" health="" issues="" as="" these="" inner="" city="" kids:="" depression,="" crime,="" substance="" abuse,="" anxiety,="" suicide.="">
All humans are bound to suffer. I believe that certain amount of pressure is important for any human being, especially for adolescents. Athletics, academia, dating, peer pressure - this is all part of being a human. Ancient kings, pampered, sheltered from all pressure - they lived short and unhappy lives
I completely agree with OP – I have a unique situation with very different twin seniors . . . one is a very typical and strong “B” student, gpa 3.5, no AP’s or even Honors courses on her transcript but solid grades, less than impressive ACT/SAT scores, thoughtful electives and extra-curriculars and lots of volunteer work. We were surprised and ecstatic that she was accepted into all 7 of the schools she applied to, including 2 reach schools with stats well-above hers. DS, has an extremely rigorous course-load with all AP courses, many AP and Honors courses under his belt, decent test scores, and extremely focused and committed e.c’s with a few solid leadership positions. He was deferred to 2 of the 5 schools (accepted to the other 3 though with less than impressive financial aid), and will find out this Spring about the remaining 6 schools (and 2 that deferred). He is in the top 5% of a very large class, though he is constantly stressed and frustrated by the level of competition. I would much rather welcome the experience of our DD who has had much less stress and been able to enjoy the riches of her efforts with much less struggle.
@LOUKYDAD I think she is a Doe but what do I know? I think she hasn’t found her “passion” in the parlance of CC. I don’t know. Maybe her passion is balance. Hmmm