UC Berkeley vs Cornell vs Cambridge (UK) [for Physics related studies]

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Cambridge is amazing, absolutely! … if the program is an academic fit. The program is different from the US programs in engineering physics that are being compared. It is possible, however, that this type of program is what the student prefers, I don’t know.

This is not addressed to you specifically @Lindagaf but since several people have mentioned UK programs being very focused and assumed the student would be studying just physics (and supporting things like math) for this degree, I’m going to copy paste the curriculum outline below (from the Natural Sciences web site) to give a sense of what the program covers.

The three-year bachelors program is just the first three years. Some subjects offer a fourth year MSci.

Year 1 (Part IA)

You can study a range of different subjects in your first year. However, you may need to have certain A levels or IB to study some of them.

Check the entry requirements for the Year 1 subjects you’d like to study.

You will choose three science subjects from these areas:

  • Biology of Cells
  • Chemistry
  • Earth Sciences
  • Evolution and Behaviour
  • Materials Science
  • Physics
  • Physiology of Organisms

You can also choose to take Psychology, subject to timetable restrictions and student numbers.

You will also take one of the two mathematics subjects:

  • Mathematics focusing on Physical sciences
  • Mathematics focusing on Biological sciences

Year 2 (Part IB)

You will take three subjects, from the following areas:

  • Animal Diversity
  • Biochemistry
  • Cell Biology
  • Chemistry A: Physical and Theoretical Chemistry
  • Chemistry B: Organic, Inorganic and Biological Chemistry
  • Conservation
  • Developmental Biology
  • Earth Sciences A: Igneous and metamorphic processes, mineralogy and planetary differentiation
  • Earth Sciences B: Climate, geobiology, geophysics and the sedimentary record
  • Ecology
  • Environmental Sciences: Quantitative Approaches
  • Evolution
  • Genetics
  • History and Philosophy of Science
  • Materials Science
  • Mathematics
  • Mathematical and Computational Biology
  • Microbiology
  • Molecular Biology
  • Neurobiology
  • Pathology
  • Pharmacology
  • Physics A: Waves, Quantum Mechanics, Condensed Matter Physics
  • Physics B: Dynamics, Electromagnetism, Thermodynamics
  • Physiology
  • Plant Sciences

Year 3 (Part II)

You can choose to follow a broad subject in Biological or Physical Sciences, or you can choose to specialise in one of these areas:

  • Astrophysics
  • Biochemistry
  • Chemistry
  • Earth Sciences
  • Ecology
  • Genetics
  • History and Philosophy of Science
  • Materials Science
  • Neuroscience
  • Pathology
  • Pharmacology
  • Physics
  • Physiology, Development and Neuroscience
  • Plant Sciences
  • Zoology

Please note that some Year 3 subjects have limited numbers due to the size of the laboratory space.

Year 4 (Part III)

These subjects offer a fourth year option, which lead to an MSci degree:

  • Astrophysics
  • Biochemistry
  • Chemistry
  • Earth Sciences
  • History and Philosophy of Science
  • Materials Science
  • Physics
  • Systems Biology
  • Quantitative Climate and Environmental Science

For further information about studying Natural Sciences at the University of Cambridge see the Natural Sciences course website.

@beefeater also made the interesting point that

I am guessing that is what the curriculum above is referring to, when it says “Please note that some Year 3 subjects have limited numbers due to the size of the laboratory space.”

So it’s a “secondary admission” program (like many others we discuss on CC).

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NatSci at Cambridge is only broad in the first year and then becomes much narrower unless you don’t want to specialize (but most of the best students will do). It is certainly not “liberal arts”, you are unlike to write a single essay in three years.

Some students who want to end up in physics PhD programs start on the math side (math with physics: https://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/files/maths_with_physics.pdf) others start with NatSci and usually (but not always) do Chemistry in addition to Physics in the first year. The former will mostly be theoreticians, the latter experimentalists, but that’s not a given. For entry to a PhD you could take Part III math in year 4 instead of the MSci if you want to be a theoretician.

Let me know if you have more questions about Cambridge. Unless you want to stay close to home, I think it would be hard to pass up, even for Berkeley.

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Good to see you again, @Andygp

@tamagotchi, thanks for sharing the Cambridge curriculum.

While I see that there is an opportunity to branch out within the sciences, I don’t see much (Psych and History/Philosophy of Science maybe?) opportunity to broaden the education to include humanities and social sciences.

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Agreed. I would say that the structure is simply different from the US programs.

  • Branching out (within the sciences) in the first year would be required.
  • Concentrating on physics would be possible in the second year, by taking the two Physics subjects and either Mathematics or one other related subject. Or the OP could change direction if desired.
  • Admission to physics in year 3 would apparently depend on secondary admission; I don’t see stats listed on admission to year 3 programs but the OP could contact the university for details.

Since the OP applied to several engineering physics programs (as opposed to pure physics), I would wonder if they also wanted access to engineering electives and other subjects such as computer science, but only the OP knows!

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I think “secondary admission” is not the right description. It’s not like the US where there’s a GPA cutoff. What they will do is ensure that those who specialize in year 2 get priority over people who continue to take a broad range of courses. As I noted above, the stronger students will tend to specialize.

So in US terms this is more like saying physics majors get priority over non-majors for upper level physics classes.

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So @beefeater’s description is not accurate?

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If you don’t pass your exams (fewer than 5% fall into that category), then you won’t be allowed to continue full stop. With the three science subjects, it’s possible that if you fail one you may be allowed to stay to do one of the other subjects but you may just be asked to leave. More typical is that you get a poor lower second or third (ie bottom 10-20%) in that subject then you’ll realize (even if it isn’t suggested) that other subject choices will suit you better.

This is nothing like secondary admission in US colleges which sometimes needs to weed out the majority of pre-majors.

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Ok, thanks for the info!

That sounds more like “students must make satisfactory academic progress to continue in the major,” which would not be categorized on CC as secondary admissions, since it’s universal… students are rarely allowed to continue anywhere if they are failing.

Many secondary admission programs do, in practice, have quite high rates of admission to desired majors (like 80-85%) but students are still warned about them on CC as it does create some risk. Stats can be helpful for students to evaluate this risk.

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This is really helpful insight and would calm a lot of concerns about real difficulty in progressing. What I had understood was that there was a qualifying exam, but this seems much more manageable.

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Well, lower second or third = no job and no grad school (at least in the UK). You need a 2:1 or a 1:1.

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There’s an exam at the end of each year on all the material covered. That’s the only grading you get. You’d have one paper for each science course and one for math, i.e. four 3 hour papers over the course of a few days (in some cases two per day, 9-12 and 2-5). The exams are challenging, there is no plug and chug like in the US, and top students will do hugely better than the average (in math, which I did, the top first scored double the lowest first and about 3-4 times the average score). But especially nowadays it’s quite hard to fail.

You do have to spend a lot of time (at least 3 weeks out of 5) studying during Christmas and Easter vacations to review everything covered in the prior term, as 8 weeks is really short.

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This is true but only applies to your exam results in your third year. That’s what ends up as your degree class and goes on your resume for your entire career (even applying for a job as a CEO in your 50s: everyone knows what degree class the U.K. Prime Minister got). The first and second year results can be quietly ignored if they aren’t so good (although you may want to tell people if you got a first in both Part 1 and Part 2, a “double first”).

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For a purely gut reaction, here are my thoughts:

Harvey Mudd or UCSB CCS program (incredible programs and small classes, so you can really get one-on-one attention), then UCB for grad school.

Great schools, great weather, great life! :star_struck:

If my kiddo had the same options, and was a California resident, my order of personal preference would be:

  1. Harvey Mudd (Physics & Math)
  2. UC Santa Barbara (Physics - College of Creative Studies Program)
  3. UC Berkeley (Engineering Physics)
  4. UCLA (Physics)
  5. University of Cambridge, UK (Physical Science)
  6. Georgia Tech (Advanced Physics)
  7. Cornell (Engineering Physics)
  8. University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (Engineering Physics)
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Hello everyone, sorry I was a bit busy with AP exams and finals this past month, but genuinely thank you so much for all the responses and information! After weighing all my colleges, I narrowed my list down to two, UC Berkeley and Cambridge. I am currently torn deciding between the two and am trying to learn a bit more about Cambridge and its Natural Sciences (Physical route) progam. I already know quite a bit about Berkeley’s Engineering Physics program, since I live nearby and know some students there. @Twoin18 From your post I got the feeling that you attended Cambridge (could be wrong), and I would really appreciate if you could help me with some questions I had about Cambridge. Though of course, I would love to hear from others as well if you all might know anything.

Also, just an additional note, the original post was actually written by my dad if you couldn’t tell by the writing style (not sure why he was writing it from my perspective haha), so that’s why it has some slight mistakes in there about program names and is even missing a whole college lol (UChicago, not that it matters now). For the most part what he said is true, but I would just like to add that I mostly likely intend to do a PhD in physics (or a related field), and that if I did it, I would probably do it in the US. So with some of my following questions, I am trying to gauge how possible it is for me to go from a Cambridge bachelors + masters (3 + 1 years) to a PhD at a top US physics university. Also, I wrote and sent some of these questions to an American Oxford CS+Math student I found, so that’s why it may sound like I’m talking about Oxbridge in general and addressing someone.

—1) What is the undergraduate research culture like?
I know at American unis, for more science-heavy subjects undergrads really try to go for research positions in professors’ labs or other research opportunities during term and/or break, especially since it is quite important for US grad school applications. Is undergrad research less emphasized in the UK with the focus being placed more so on studying/final exams performance? I’ve heard that Oxbridge terms are short and extremely busy, but is it somewhat common to land research positions on campus during break? If not on campus, are opportunities during break like REU/SURF (research at other universities/locations) somewhat common? Also, if undergrad research isn’t common, is it because the students don’t really seek it out, or is it because it difficult to enter profs’ labs?

—2) What about the internship scene?
This is very similar to the first question. I realize that Silicon Valley probably has a lot more opportunities in this regard, but how is the availability of internships at Oxbridge/near London and do students usually do some during breaks? I realize that the landscape changes drastically between cs and physics, but I’m still just curious.

—3) What does the path/future prospects for most STEM students look like after graduation?
Do they mostly go to grad school elsewhere in the UK/work in London, or is going to the US for grad school also somewhat common? Would there be any possible roadblocks trying to do the latter, with the UK to US shift?

—4) To what extent is it possible to explore computer science or engineering through the Natural Sciences?
From my understanding, there aren’t any cs or engineering courses offered in Nat Sci. I think there was a cs course until a few years ago, but I believe they removed it. After this change, I heard that there were some cs skills integrated into the physics courses since cs is used heavily in the sciences now for vairous reasons, but to what extent would this cs learning be? Also, would the lack of cs courses cause any issues in perhaps pursuing a field such as quantum computing, that is very much physics but also heavily cs depending on what side of it?

—5) How might the academic system depending almost entirely on the year-end exams affect your degree and application to grad schools?
I saw this earlier in the thread, but is it really only 3rd year results that affect future jobs/higher education?

—6) How have you found the tutorial/supervision system?
This is a major “selling point” or at least difference between Oxbridge and lots of other unis, so I was wondering whether you’ve found it particularly valuable as a learning experience so far? Basically, if you don’t mind me being a bit more direct, does it live up to what it’s made out to be?

Well then, these are the main questions I had about Cambridge, some of which I realize some are a bit vague. Since I am trying to get a feel for the system there, I would greatly appreciate any and all information even if it’s not directly related to these questions. Thanks in advance!

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Yes I went to Cambridge. I was admitted for NatSci but changed to Maths during my gap year, because it was less work :wink: That’s because maths is just 12 hours of lectures a week whereas NatSci is 30 hours of lectures and labs before you start the problem sets. I also stayed for a PhD.

To your questions:

  1. there’s little if any undergrad research connected to labs either during term or vacations. But you do take a lot of lab classes as part of your course. You aren’t encouraged to stay in the summer (it’s hard to find accommodation then). The key to a PhD is the fourth year which is much more research oriented and where you decide on a PhD topic. In the U.K. you’d go straight into research after that (no taught courses or qualifying exams).
  2. there are more summer internships nowadays after year 2 for those looking to get a job (those people won’t always stay for a fourth year). But be aware that coming back to the US can be tricky as the timing is similar to US quarters, late June-late Sept. It’s not uncommon for U.K. students to do something unrelated in the summers, working at a retail job or similar to pay for a long holiday (in my day interrailing and mountaineering expeditions, now often more exotic).
  3. The best students want to stay at Cambridge or Oxford, the US is another alternative, but not always the preferred option except for overseas students who have a hard time securing funding to stay in the U.K. (most comes from research councils and is specifically directed to U.K. residents). This is quite different to the US where you are typically encouraged to go elsewhere for your PhD. You’ll encounter plenty of Cambridge professors who arrived for undergrad at age 18 and have spent their entire career there.
  4. You can attend other lectures and there are lots of academic clubs to pursue areas of interest through independent work. Again the fourth year is the time for substantive research, which can be interdisciplinary.
  5. only the third year exam class goes on your resume. But first and second year results may matter for internships and references (and to a limited extent for being allowed to specialize in later years). Now that most people take a fourth year before applying for a PhD, getting a first in the third year is what matters. Previously you got a conditional offer for a masters or PhD based on your third year exams (requiring a first). You may need to get a first or close to it to be allowed to stay for the fourth year.
  6. Yes supervisions are generally good, especially the intro ones. There can be some variability by college, depending on how many fellows there are at your college in your subject. Sometimes you need to go to other colleges or have supervisors who are PhD students, especially for more obscure courses.
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Thank you so much for the lengthy and detailed response! It really gave me a much clearer understanding of the Nat Sci program and will be invaluable when making the final decision, especially since it’s so hard to come by Cambridge math/physics students from over here in the US.

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