UC vs IVY LEAGUE

Colleges & Universities Harvard University
101

<p>SnuggleMonster,</p>

<p>I think that at the graduate level, Cal is better than Harvard or Yale, as far as overall program quality is concerned. </p>

<p>I think that at the undergrad level, the program suffers because of too many students, too little funding to spend on each student, and far too much bureaucracy, “sink or swim” thinking, and dragging its feet with the bottom 25th percentile students.</p>

<p>And the worst part? Cal and UCLA could both fix a few minor things and improve the programs quite a bit.</p>

102

<p>What does too many students mean? If you’re talking about big classes, then you’d be interested to know that 15 percent of Cal’s classes have more than 50 students, while at Harvard 13 percent are over 50. Or when you mention crowded are you talking about the line to get coffee at the Bear’s Lair, because I’ll admit that’s crowded. As far as sink or swim, what are you talking about? Please give me some stats on this whole sink or swim thing, because I don’t know what you’re talking about. If you’re asking if Cal is easy, then no its not, but I’d bet most Harvard students would argue with you saying their school is easy.</p>

103

<p>SnuggleMonster,</p>

<p>Stop putting words in my mouth, please. </p>

<p>Cal’s class sizes aren’t the problem. The problem is that there is tons of student body growth, but funding growth hasn’t matched it.</p>

<p>Get rid of the bottom 25th percentile or so, and all of a sudden the per capita student funding shoots up, you get rid of most of the students who are struggling, and you can offer better resources to each individual student. </p>

<p>Cal and UCLA lose money on students, and adding more hasn’t helped.</p>

104

<p>How have I put words in your mouth? You said Cal is overcrowded, and I showed you that the percentage of large classes is nearly identical. I still don’t know what you mean by crowded. Where, exactly, is funding lacking for undergrads? I’d think a loss of funding would hurt grad programs much more severely, seeing as how their projects cost much more. Cal also woefully underpays thier non professional workers like janitors, food service and garbage collectors, but I don’t see how that effects my education.</p>

105

<p>I think I should clear one thing up. I think Harvard is better than Cal. Always have, always will. This conversation is by no means trying to say that Cal is better than or on par with Harvard.</p>

106

<p>I’d choose Cal over Harvard <em>shrug</em>…if you look past a school’s name, other factors come into play. if you’re looking to be set for life, go to harvard…if you want more meaning in your life, then you wouldn’t oversimplify the situation. Harvard is obviously ‘the best’ but that doesn’t make saying Cal is better a crazy opinion. opinions are opinions.</p>

107

<p>SnuggleMonster, I don’t believe UCLAri is talking about individual class size (I wouldn’t be either). I believe he’s referencing the total student body (6,655 vs. 22,144). Now, that’s a huge difference and the funding hasn’t been able to keep up with the pop. of CA.</p>

108

<p>That is a huge difference, but if you’re going to make statements about a school being overcrowded I’d think its only appropriate to explain what you mean. And if you’re going to say money, or lack thereof, is causing problems with undergrad education, I’d think you should have some sort of stats or even just examples to back you up. Where is the money lacking and how does it affect my UG eduaction. As I’ve said earlier, the lack of funds has caused the university to underpay its non professional employees, and while I think that that is unfair to our workers, I don’t see how it affects my education. If UCLAri or anyone else can show me that lack of funding has caused UG education to be diminished at Cal I’d be happy to hear it, but so far I haven’t.</p>

109

<p>i think the smarter but not the better choice is the UC system – graduate education makes a bigger impact on future success than undergrad, so in my opinion the perfect plan would be to do undergrad at a good and cheap public school and then get into grad school at a top or near top program with full funding in best case scenario – i doubt education at Harvard or Yale is 5-times as better because 5-times as much is what you’ll be paying for it instead of in-state UC tuition (or instead of tuition at any other good public university at one’s state)</p>

<p>as for quality of students at UC, it is true that they accept a few too many people who are just dumb – i’m all for giving higher education to the masses cuz there’s a society out there and it’s better if it keeps informed and educated – but they should have like separate classes for these kids – most of them come through having a complete hodgepodge in their heads by 3rd-4th year and, of course, in the very end they all want to get into med, pharm, or dental school – seriously, i had people tell me some pretty amazing things … but then i knew someone who TAed as Harvard and he shared some no less spectacular stories of stupidity of local students so i’m betting Harvard has its share, though perhaps a lesser one cuz it is more selective</p>

110

<p>

</p>

<p>I return.</p>

<p>For one, it pulls professors away (which hurts both grads and UGs) to schools that pay more. I remember Stanford and Harvard stealing a couple great profs from the UCLA poli sci dept. and how much it caused a ruckus. Now, you can say, “Sure, but it happens all the time!” But when you consider that UC profs are well below the other top schools in salaries, you’re going to watch a lot of profs leave (which hurts both grad and UG.)</p>

<p>Classes cost money to run. Electricity isn’t free. I remember back during the biggest crunch when I was undergrad how many classes were cancelled, forcing students to either take fewer courses (and delay graduation) or take classes they didn’t really want. UCs are rampant with these stories. Cut a few students, and all of a sudden you have more classes…</p>

<p>Funding and student pop. numbers affect housing. Grads tend not to live on-campus. Most UGs will. Good housing is a serious factor in getting students to come, especially when quality gaps are narrow. Why would you go live in a run-down 1930s concrete heap when your next-door private school has a shiny new dorm? Especially if both programs are of a similar quality?</p>

<p>Funding affects programs on campus like shows, student activities, common areas, etc. Believe it or not, many students care about things outside of class.</p>

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</p>

<p>You don’t think that properly maintained buildings, facilities, and systems affect your education? </p>

<p>And a lot of these things simply do not concern grad students. They don’t care about housing, or how many classes get cancelled on undergrads, or the overall university (well, as much as undergrads do). They care primarily about their department and how it’s performing.</p>

<p>Furthermore, you say that counseling doesn’t matter as much. That’s because YOU are doing well. How about the student who doesn’t have a similarly strong sense of direction? Too bad for them? Sink or swim? This is where privates seem to do a much better job of giving undergrads a comfortable experience. Since public graduate education tends to be much more like privates (lots of personal attention) it tends to suffer less. But I remember reading in the Daily Bruin about how facilities at UCLA Law not having funding was losing them students to USC and Loyola, despite lower rankings.</p>

111

<p>“For one, it pulls professors away”</p>

<p>I challenge you to find a better, more qualified faculty than at Cal. People take pay cuts to work here.</p>

<p>" I remember back during the biggest crunch when I was undergrad how many classes were cancelled, forcing students to either take fewer courses (and delay graduation) or take classes they didn’t really want"</p>

<p>Again, I can’t comment on UCLA, but absolutely nothing like that has happened while I’ve been at Cal. I’m starting to think something is wrong with UCLA.</p>

<p>“Funding and student pop. numbers affect housing.”</p>

<p>I’ll concede that point, but it only affects you for a year, then you can move off campus.</p>

<p>“Funding affects programs on campus like shows, student activities, common areas, etc. Believe it or not, many students care about things outside of class.”</p>

<p>You obviously don’t know Berkeley very well. Even the most jaded of posters will admit that someting is always, always going on Campus. During the last year or so I’ve seen P.T. Anderson, David Lynch, Dan Rather, and Michael Chabon speak on campus. There are also poetry reading from well known poets as well as students themselves. There are hundereds of asuc sponsored groups that are constantly putting on events or demonstrations or lectures. </p>

<p>“You don’t think that properly maintained buildings, facilities, and systems affect your education?”</p>

<p>Now you’re just grasping at straws. First, those jobs ARE being done. THere ARE people to take out the garbarge and mow the lawn. If you want to talk about the moral or ethical implications of not paying these people, we could talk, but no, they don’t affect my education.</p>

<p>“Furthermore, you say that counseling doesn’t matter as much. That’s because YOU are doing well. How about the student who doesn’t have a similarly strong sense of direction? Too bad for them? Sink or swim?”</p>

<p>I’ve never had even the slightest problem talking to a counseler. I can’t speak for every program, but if they are all like mine then I really don’t see the problem. Yes, its true that they wont seek out. You have to go to them. But if you can’t get it together enough to walk up a few flights of stair at Wheeler (for english majors) and see a major advisor, then something is very wrong with you that not even a private school can fix.</p>

<p>And you didn’t ask, but since it seems to be a common perception I’ll adress the issue of professor contact. I’ve never, EVER had a class where the professor didn’t beg to meet students during office hours. If you have another class or job during their normal office hours, they’ll usually change them for you or meet you at a coffee shop or something. I’ve had word famous professors email me out of the blue to congratulate me on a good paper. Others have set up end of the semester parties for all the students int he class. I won’t say every teacher has been good and some of them are even jerks that I wouldn’t want to talk to outside of class, but find me a school where every teacher is wonderfull and nice and I’ll start filling out my transfer papers.</p>

112

<p>I’ll finish by saying that Cal is very far from being perfect. There are alot of students here that don’t seem to care about learning and are only hear to pick up a degree, but honestly, many of those students are supposedly the “smart ones” in the EECS or business majors. There are also alot of big classes (mostly in the first two years), but again, that is no different than any other research university, as the class size stats have proven. There are also alot of “red tape” issues here, like getting fin aid on time or changing majors, but for ME those are small issues that I maybe deal with once a semester and don’t affect my education. These reasons, and reasons of prestige, are why Cal is not seen in the same light as Harvard, Yale or Stanford, and I’m ok with that. I’m going to get out of school with a ton of experience (inside and outside of class), some good letters of rec from awesome professors, and very, very little debt. Maybe I would’ve been better off going to Cornell or Uchicago, but I doubt it.</p>

113

<p>UCLAri, </p>

<p>You really are wrong in speculating about decline in quality of teaching due to a perceived decline in funding at Cal.</p>

<p>-quality of the faculty has stayed great. Look at this chart, from the main Berkeley metrics page, about offers made and accepted to faculty from other schools:</p>

<p><a href=“http://metrics.vcbf.berkeley.edu:81/?@_WIDTH750@_HEIGHT529@_FILEapfiles/BarChart.bin@_GIF@_LOADHTTPREQUESThttp://metrics.vcbf.berkeley.edu/metricsData_cb.cfm?fromyear=1992-1993&toyear=2001-2002&metval=Offers+Made+and+Accepted&title=Faculty+-+Offers+Made+and+Accepted+-+Campus+Trend[/url]”>http://metrics.vcbf.berkeley.edu:81/?@_WIDTH750@_HEIGHT529@_FILEapfiles/BarChart.bin@_GIF@_LOADHTTPREQUESThttp://metrics.vcbf.berkeley.edu/metricsData_cb.cfm?fromyear=1992-1993&toyear=2001-2002&metval=Offers+Made+and+Accepted&title=Faculty+-+Offers+Made+and+Accepted+-+Campus+Trend&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>-Class sizes have been relatively small, not much larger from those at say Stanford.</p>

<p>-Campus facilities and buildings have constantly been getting better. There has been a great amount of new construction in the past two decades. Maths, Physics, Bio, Business, Law, Music, libraries, Asian Studies, athletics…</p>

<p>-Housing: you really don’t understand Berkeley. There is plently of dorm space available for undergrads (some spaces go unfilled.) Quality and quantity has gone up. But unlike most other schools, Berkeley is amazing in that the housing stock around town is excellent. I think it’s a huge mistake to stay in the dorms past your first or second year when you can rent a gorgeous 100-yr old cottage with a group of friends and walk to classes every day (that kind of arrangement is actually cheaper.) </p>

<p>In terms of living accomodations/housing options, Berkeley is a fantastic place with an unparalleled range of options, from Coops to fraternities to UG dorms to mixed UG/Grad dorms like the International House to city living in wonderful neighborhoods and houses within walking distance of campus.</p>

114

<p>Ha, there are plenty of dorm spaces at Cal, but check out the lastest posts on the Berkley board: several of them are about people screaming how they’re stuck in Unit triples or something they completely didn’t want. Sure, they accomodate people, but at that price, I’d want to be happy with my housing.</p>

<p>(And don’t say, “How do you know they won’t be happy?” or “Well, they’ll be happy when they get here!”)</p>

115

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</p>

<p>I NEVER SAID THAT.</p>

116

<p>Okay CalX and SnuggleMonster, I concede. Funding does not affect undergrads or grads or professors at all. It’s completely meaningless. </p>

<p>In fact, this is why Stanford complains about funding. It’s because it’s meaningless. </p>

<p>This is why both UCLA and Cal have started fundraisers. Because it’s completely meaningless.</p>

<p>In fact, this is why the whole UC system has been complaining about budget cuts. Because it thinks that it’s completely meaningless. </p>

<p>And this is also why many people at UCOP have said that it will affect undergrads first and grads later. Because it they think it’s completely meaningless.</p>

117

<p>“Okay CalX and SnuggleMonster, I concede. Funding does not affect undergrads or grads or professors at all. It’s completely meaningless”</p>

<p>I can’t speak for CalX, but I didn’t say that. Read my post. I’ll ask again, how do funding woes hurt Cal in terms of EDUCATION. Not happy janitors or ugly paint jobs in dorms, but education. If this money problem is affecting professors as much as you say, I’ll ask you to show me a school with a better, more respected faculty. If they’re all leaving and being replaced with rank amateurs it should be easy to for you to show us all.</p>

118

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</p>

<p>That’s the problem, you don’t think these things matter. They DO. A university is so much more than just the classes; it’s the total experience. </p>

<p>Here’s an article from UCSB’s paper that points out a few issues:</p>

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</p>

<p>Now I realize that this issue doesn’t affect UCLA and Cal as much, as they have much better “outside” sources of funding, but you have to look at more than just the “textbooks and lectures.” You may say that it’s not a big deal to have to claw your way through the bureaucracy to get things done, but it matters. The ease of accomplishing basic tasks at a school affects the quality of the experience, which in turn makes it easier to learn. You call it being “babied,” but if a student can choose between a school that’s going to treat her well or a school that’s just going to throw her to the lions, and both offer similar funding, which one is going to offer the better experience?</p>

<p>Grads, however, are even more insulated from these issues, since departments usually function more independently from the university than an entire undergrad program can.</p>

119

<p>“You may say that it’s not a big deal to have to claw your way through the bureaucracy to get things done, but it matters. The ease of accomplishing basic tasks at a school affects the quality of the experience, which in turn makes it easier to learn. You call it being “babied,” but if a student can choose between a school that’s going to treat her well or a school that’s just going to throw her to the lions, and both offer similar funding, which one is going to offer the better experience?”</p>

<p>As I said, the bureaucracy is something you might have to deal with maybe once a semester, and its usually just waiting in a bunch of lines. Inconvenient? Sure, but its not the end of the world and I certainly wouldn’t make my college choice based on it. The other thing in the article you quoted is the cost of school. If you are going to directly or indirectly use rising cost as a factor as to why Cal is bad or whatever argument you’re trying to make, then I’d hope you’d be going to all the private school boards and really raising a fuss, as their costs are as much as four times more than Berkeley’s. As far as the quality of the experience, I’d say its pretty high. I live in one of the most vibrent areas in the world. And again, I don’t see you on the stanford or cornell boards deriding their undergrad eduation because the “quality of the experience” is lacking. Have you been to Palo Alto? Try to tell me that spending four years there is going to give you a great experience. And as I’ve said before, if you really, really need a counselor to call you twice a week to make sure everything is running smoothly (and you have an exta 100 thousand dollars) by all means you should pick a private school to attend.</p>

120

<p>SnuggleMonster,</p>

<p>You forget that a lot of the best programs also tend to have much better financial aid options. You can’t look at the price tag for Harvard and say, “that’s what most people pay.”</p>

<p>Stanford vs. Berkeley is a tough sell, I agree. In fact, I think that outside of name, the undergrad experience at Stanford may not be as good. </p>

<p>But I do think that Cal students fall back on the “Berkeley is so vibrant” option far too much. Just like UCLA students fall back on Westwood. </p>

<p>Here’s another example of an article from a UC source (this time focusing on UCLA.)</p>

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</p>

<p>And don’t tell me that Cal is completely immune, either. Both UCLA and Cal have similar budgetary needs, and I doubt that Cal is able to tolerate shifts in budgets much better than UCLA. These problems that the UC faces are real, SnuggleMonster, and they affect the undergrads first. </p>

<p>I for one am willing to face it. I can see why people choose privates over UCs. Why is this so hard to imagine?</p>

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</p>

<p>When did I ever say that? WHEN?</p>

<p>I said that undergrad and graduate education quality has a gap. I never said that Cal, as an institution, is bad. Now you DEFINITELY put words in my mouth.</p>