UChicago Braces for $220M Deficit

It is true…if a student’s expected financial contribution (as calculated by the school’s proprietary formula) is so low that the FA package covers all costs (Tuition, R&B, fees, books, travel, mandatory health insurance, etc.), the grants the student receives to cover any non-tuition/fees piece are taxable to the student.

Many students at meets-full-need schools are on full or near full rides.

At Harvard, 20% of students pay nothing to attend. https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid

It’s not common, but at schools that stack merit and need-based aid, some students even get cash back…literally be paid to attend. There was a long CC thread this year about a student’s college search which was complex…the family could not afford their estimated costs they were getting on the NPCs (which is not uncommon), so they needed to merit hunt. That student will be paid $8K/year to attend U of SC this coming Fall. She was also accepted to Princeton, who couldn’t come close to matching that offer.

If a school meets full need (like U Chicago), and the student’s expected contribution isn’t high enough to pay for non-tuition charges, the school has no choice to cover room and board and the rest, because that is what they promise to do. If the school is need blind during the admission process, they have no idea the extent of need of any of the applicants.

Max Pell Grant is just over $6K (U Chicago receives this money from the Feds for each qualifying student), so U Chicago has to pick up the rest of the tab.

We would know exactly how much all of these FA buckets are if U Chicago would fill out the Common Data Set, like the schools they consider peers do. Ultimately we can see it in IPEDs, but by then it is a couple of years old.

A broader Q here: why don’t the mega-rich schools (like Harvard and Princeton) make it policy that they want, say, 60-70% of their class to be low SES kids? Couldn’t they say, “we want to be engines of social mobility, and this is how we can do it?”

Wouldn’t this also turn on its head the conception that these mega-rich schools are playgrounds for the rich?

Yes, they have tuition revenue targets too, but this seems feasible for these schools.

(Oh, and @marlowe1 - you asked, after potential admits “show they have the sauce” - what are the biggest hooks? Here’s what I think, in order: URMs, children of faculty [this is a big one, for many reasons], low SES, D3 athletes… and then others like legacies/big donors, geographic diversity, etc. I’d say 30-40% of the class has a “hook,” if not more.)

The whole idea of “sculpting a class” is both fascinating and a little revolting. In essence, AOs are charged with creating a very artificial world - not just admitting lots of smart, capable kids. What’s the purpose of creating this artificiality? If everything is so carefully curated, doesn’t it create an overly bubble-like effect? When did this idea of “sculpting” gain traction?

Strange, indeed - and it leads to so many questions!

@Cue7 , how much of the more debatable type of sculpting is actually going on at Chicago? You and I and most here would agree that “sculpting” is necessary, democratic, and in every way admirable with respect to the low-SES and underrepresented groups who benefit from it. One could call this “sculpting” but to me it seems simply correct and inevitable and hence the word is meaningless.

That leaves recruited athletes, children of faculty, legacies, and big donors. I believe Zoom was projecting a figure for the first of these of around 100 per year. It is hard for me to see how the aggregate of the three other categories could be more than another 150 per year. I don’t see geography as a hook at all, merely a side effect of national standing and appeal.

If something like those figures are correct then we would be looking at around 10 percent of the admitted class that benefitted from hooks that could be called true “sculpting.” And even a portion of that 10 percent probably didn’t need those hooks: they just happened to coordinate well with the very cultural and educational characteristics Chicago particularly values.

Thus, though it sounds impressive to say that the College is “sculpting the class it wants”, for the most part this is a meaningless tautology. Is it really “revolting” that Chicago is privileging the applications of under-represented groups, on the one hand, or kids of high intellectual performance and promise who are the “Chicago type”, on the other hand? I would say no. I have less use for the preferences accorded to recruited athletes, legacies, etc, but the small portion of the class comprised in those categories does not justify calling the whole enterprise a “bubble” and an “artificial world”. Of course the latter term, which you are using as a term of dispraise, is really a truism: everything created by human beings, as Aristotle tells us, is an artifice. Any human product, whether a statue, a building or a great institution, can be executed well or executed poorly. Isn’t that the question to ask?

@marlowe1 - your argument seems to be: “well, Chicago doesn’t sculpt the class that much, so what’s the problem?”

In counter, I ask you: are you also ok with how Harvard and Duke sculpt their classes? You’ve spoken fairly disdainfully about their practices.

It seems to me, the only difference is Chicago’s academic bar is higher. Harvard et. al. have decided that, above a certain threshold (say, 1200 on the SATs), if a student brings enough “extras/hooks” (athletic prowess, family money, URM status, etc.), they will be just fine in the academic environment at those schools. And, as rarely anyone fails out at those schools, those calculations seem to be right.

On the other hand, the “sauce” Chicago looks for is a bit more stringent - it needs most students to have higher SAT scores (and probably more academic curiosity). But, it’s the same rubric - after the group passes those thresholds, they are then culled (or added in) based on pretty much the same metrics.

What is it about Harvard etc.'s system that has made you speak out, many times, while you seem (generally) satisfied with Chicago’s practices here?

Magnitudes and qualifiers are important, Cue. I was twitting you a bit on your description of Chicago’s sculptural efforts as creating a “bubble” and an “artificial world”. But I was also saying that I would prefer that preferences did not exist at all for recruited athletes, legacies, etc. To the extent that they do exist - and, even more importantly, to the extent that applicants with below average academic qualifications come in under them - well, I do not like this. I can hold that thought in mind together with the thought that magnitudes matter: I do not believe the magnitudes at Chicago are anything like as large or as egregious as what the Harvard Asian-American case exposed at Harvard. It is a step in the direction of Harvardization that I do not like but would have assumed you would applaud. DO you applaud it? That’s not simply a rhetorical question, Cue. Some of your recent posts have been quite exemplary in imagining a separate course for Chicago. Everyone is permitted to change his mind, and I for one will not criticize you for moving away from some of those old Harvard-centric positions of yours. Thus, I never expected to hear you utter a word against D1 sports or criticize preferences that would favor the rich as “bubbles”. Bravo, my friend! We might yet be able to drink a toast together to the alma mater. Or do I misconstrue you?

Cue, in contrast to large state schools that admit mainly on basis of numerical measures (GPA, test scores) because they can depend on law of large numbers to some extent, all highly selective private colleges intentionally and purposefully sculpt their classes and they do have legitimate reasons for doing so. I dare say that you would do the same thing if you were the President or AO at one of these colleges, and so would I even though I am also a proponent of “meritocracy.” Why is sculpting necessary when a private college has an entering class size of 1200-1700? Because these colleges are risk averse and can’t leave anything to chance.

Just think what could happen if there were no intentional sculpting and colleges simply admitted the “most qualified” applicants who also seemingly display the characteristics desired by the culture of the college (eg, intellectual curiosity, love of learning, nice person, leadership potential, etc; even these qualities are rather ambiguous and subject to the eye of the beholder but I will just assume one can measure these traits to move this forward).

If colleges didn’t manufacture their class, they could easily end up with all sorts of “unacceptable” imbalances based on their institutional needs. For example, a college could easily end up with a class that is 70% males, 2% blacks, 40% asian, 2% 1st generation, 80% majoring in engineering and CS, and its sports teams unable to field a real team because only 2 kids got in without regard to intentional athletic recruiting/consideration. If you think these outcomes are highly unlikely and improbable, just look at the historical profiles of Caltech and MIT where these kinds of imbalances used to exist until they also went about manufacturing their classes (at Caltech today, the gender balance is 55/45 and MIT is closer to 50/50 but this has been manufactured because male applicants far exceed female applicants and what these schools don’t disclose is the acceptance rates by gender or any other demographic subgroup because that would really reveal how they are shaping their class). Now if you are going to say that Caltech and MIT aren’t representative of other highly selective schools because they are narrowly focused on STEM, then I would argue that that is true but huge imbalances of the same as well as different sorts would also exist at all the highly selective liberal arts universities too. Just look at Harvard and the Ivys in the mid-1900s when high-achieving Jews were thought to be taking up too much of their classes. They responded by intentionally manufacturing their admissions criteria by placing ratings on personal qualities, leadership, and other ambiguous traits so as to place a de facto quota ceiling on the percentage of Jews in their class. Look at the top small liberal arts college today where they persistently have 60/40 or even 65/35 female:male gender ratios. This is not for lack of trying to get their gender balance closer to 50/50 but even with intentional manufacturing of admissions favoring male applicants, there is only so much they can do because the number of female applicants far exceeds the number of male applicants at the SLACs.

Take another example of academic majors. Whether or not you think colleges should be offering 70+ majors in all sorts of areas such as art history, “X” studies, minor languages, medieval studies, etc., the fact that these programs are offered mean that the colleges need warm bodies for their faculty to teach, otherwise these programs should just be eliminated and reflect the market demand for these degrees. If colleges, didn’t purposefully try to ensure that at least a handful of entering students were interested in majoring in these subject, it could easily have 80% of its class majoring in around 5 subjects like Econ, CS, Engineering, Math because these are the areas of highest market demand today. While I am naturally biased in favor of the free market, this kind of outcome would be highly politically unacceptable for administrators at these colleges because the logical conclusion would be to kill a large number of departments/majors if admissions were just based on academic excellence and market demand.

Agree schools are risk averse and must sculpt the class, or untenable imbalances (based on each school’s defined institutional priorities), or budgetary overruns may occur.

But, we do know lots of information about the admissions practices of schools that fill out their Common Data Sets. Here are Cal Tech and MIT acceptance stats by gender. Clearly manufactured to get the gender balance relatively close to 50/50.

Cal Tech (2019/20 CDS): accepted 272/6011 (4.5%) of men, and 265/2356 (11.2%) of women
MIT (2018/19): accepted 721/14689 (4.9%) of men, 743/7017 (10.6%) of women

You see similar things at LACs, where generally more females apply, so their acceptance rates are lower than males as schools try to maintain a 50/50 split, but it’s getting more difficult to do as a larger percentage of college going students are in fact, female.

Same at some LACs, where Asian students are often in short supply and may enjoy higher admit rates, especially Asian males. (that’s not in the CDS, one has to ask schools for that data).

@Zoom10 - Yes, an absence of sculpting could lead to significant imbalances in a college’s class. But, let’s start this experiment from scratch: if we started - with lots of financial backing - a mid-sized (~1700 kids per class) elite, co-educational college, what would we want the class to look like?

An equitable goal, I think, would be to have the college reflect the greater world around it (e.g., 50/50 gender split), with a nod to URMS/racial diversity and low SES students (e.g., to be an engine of social mobility).

In this way, essentially, a college gets to project how it hopes to impact the world: giving those who come from little the chance to do a lot, and otherwise reflecting greater society.

At the D3 level especially, sports could be generally participatory - who cares if the teams win or not?

The only “hooks” then, would be URMs/racial diversity and low SES. Other than that, the college simply looks to bring together the most extraordinary students.

You might see more ebb and flow based on the applicant pool from year to year. One year, more midwesterners. Another year, more Texans. Maybe one year the football team is better than another year.

Wouldn’t this system seem to be vastly more equitable, than trying to meet such a plurality of institutional interests?

Again, this comes to the purpose of an elite college. What’s the purpose? Like, why are they even doing this?

To me, the primary purpose of an elite college is two-fold:

1.) to provide an exemplary education and learning environment to the most talented students around; and
2.) to be an engine for social mobility

All of this stuff from the Harvard lawsuit, NY Times articles, etc. seem to indicate a very different purpose for elite colleges. But none of the articles comes out and says it. So, I’m asking here, per these institutional targets, what’s the point for an institution to have an elite college?

Mwfan, great pickup with the CDS data on Caltech and MIT.

This data clearly shows how the gender balance is intentionally manufactured. 2x as many males apply to MIT than females, yet female accept rate is 2x as high as males. The situation is even worse at Caltech where nearly 3x as many males apply than females.

Now, if someone is going to try to make the argument than female applicants at MIT and Caltech might just be 2-3x more qualified on objective academic measures than their male counterparts, the data shows the opposite as males have slightly higher SAT/ACT math scores than females but more importantly, males are overwhelmingly more represented in the measures of elite math ability such as the AIME and USAMO math competitions that really distinguish elite ability vs just separating average from above average ability like the general purpose SAT/ACT tests.

By extension, over 50% of the classes at Caltech and MIT would be Asian if ethnicity was not manufactured and over 40% of the classes at Ivy’s would also be Asian instead of consistently being stable at ~20% year over year as revealed in the Harvard lawsuit.

And @marlowe1 - all of the Harvard lawsuit’s reveals and articles about elite college admissions (of which Chicago is now undoubtedly a part) admittedly has my head spinning. Running predictive analytics, assigning students ratings, using a Z-list, the AI index for Ivy athletes, sculpting a class, meeting 101+ competing institutional interests, and on and on… what is going on?!

@JBStillFlying may fault me on this (in her appreciation for Nondorf) - but it seems like the “best” (not perfect, but better than the rest) system was found under Chicago’s old admissions dean, Ted O’Neill, and the fairly moderate enrollment exec, Michael Behnke.

The classic newsweek article on O’Neill’s practices (coupled with Behnke’s enrollment function - noting the college needed revenue), still seems like the most defensible admissions process. https://www.newsweek.com/inside-admissions-game-164802

As JB will point out, those “less talented” Chicago classes often failed to graduate, transferred elsewhere, and were generally unhappy.

But, as I have rebutted on other threads, using Swarthmore as a comparator (despite marked increases in the talent of their incoming classes, their graduation rates/transfer rates etc. have stayed remarkably consistent), I think offering good support to talented students (who may not have been “sculpted” into a class) offers an optimal elite college environment.

Put another way, take the O’Neill/Behnke model from 1997, give it the resources and support structures and admin thrust to offer opportunity in the wider world (along with a less punishing environment), and you have a really compelling college.

Cue, you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth when you say that you are dismayed by colleges practicing sculpting yet you are favor of ensuring 50/50 gender balances as well as achieve sufficient representation of URMs and low SES in the name of equity.

I’m not going to argue whether those social goals are or are not worth consideration, but the very fact that you want colleges to achieve these goals means that you are in favor of sculpting because these outcomes would not be achievable otherwise.

Just because you are in favor of certain outcomes and hooks (gender balance, adequate URM and low SES proportions) but not others (unconcerned or far less concerned about legacy or athletics), that only reflects your personal bias. The fact that you want any hooks at all other than pure academic accomplishment means that you are completely in favor of sculpting.

@Zoom10 - I’m in favor of college’s being ultra-transparent about what their mission is. I honestly don’t know what the mission of Harvard and Duke are, given the plurality of institutional targets they need to hit.

Any purpose necessitates sculpting. In thinking about it more, I’m not necessarily opposed to the sculpting, but trying to understand the purpose behind that sculpting.

In my hypothetical above, I presented an elite college that had two goals: social mobility and reflecting the world around it. This necessitates sculpting to some degree (50/50 gender split, URMs, etc.).

Alternatively, we could present a college with one goal: admitting the most extraordinary students.

One way or another, you’ll “sculpt” the class. But you do so to serve some clearly delineated purpose.

It seems like elite colleges these days obfuscate the plethora of institutional targets and goals it has. That’s, ultimately, my frustration. Varsity Blues, the Harvard lawsuit, all these articles seem to have blown the lid off something fairly insidious - and disappointing, given what could (and should) be a much more identifiable institutional purpose.

Again, in think about it more, I’m not opposed with “sculpting” per se, but the purposes/goals behind that sculpting.

This seems like a big game of hide the ball. I go back to my foundational question: what’s the purpose of an elite college?

“What’s the purpose of an elite college?” --Why a single purpose only, and why must every elite college have the same purpose or set of purposes?

I will take a shot at the purpose at the U of C and say that it is the transmission to all its students of the best and most important of the ideas, the history, and the methods that have shaped the world. This is the explicit objective of the Core, but it also animates the more speciaized courses and fields that are available as concentrations.

That mission implies a seriousness of purpose and a sense that learning is important in and of itself. As generations of lecturers have said in one way or another in “Aims of Education” addresses to entering classes, education is not aiming at anything, it is the thing itself.

A necessary corollary is that it be open to all and not the preserve of the wealthy and privileged. That is because it is not merely an adornment but an essential element in the life of anyone of any background who longs for it. That is why the inclusion of all who have the ability and fortitude to sustain such an education is fundamental to the mission and not merely an arbitrary or imposed preference. All else is subsidiary, whether it be any particular mix of EC’s, pleasant dorms, social life, or even the potential of a Chicago education to create leaders and improve SES status. Those are all happy accidents compared to the main event.

That’s my manifesto, and I’m sticking to it.

@marlowe1 - your purpose is too narrow, no? Otherwise, how do you explain (for the past 7-8 years) stable incoming statistics or bumps in certain areas? Racial makeup, geographic location, students from certain zip codes, etc. Etc.?

Moreover, “not being a preserve for the wealthy,” is different than explicitly preferencing low SES, right?

Finally, it is fine for a college to have many purposes. But the targets should be trandparent. And, the number of purposes now seems dizzying, no? Like how many people know one of dartmouth’s purposes is to recruit 30 elite skiers a year? Or that one of harvard’s purposes is to get whoever the best students in wyoming happen to be?

Cue, the answer to your question is quite simple and straightforward: the primary purpose of elite colleges is to increase their eminence, particularly vis a vis each other.

The measures of eminence are public prestige as indicated by desirability, selectivity, and yield, quality of faculty in terms of ground-breaking and truly impactful research and knowledge generation, and the quality of its students across multiple dimensions with the goal of maximizing outcomes after graduation (this includes future leaders in all fields as well as the wealth of its graduates). All of these attributes of eminence are linked to each other and require money because the pecking order is a zero sum game.

You wistfully long for the days of Ted O’Neil yet Chicago’s eminence, which you also constantly compare to Ivy’s, has never been greater than under the current admin of Zimmer/Nondorf.

In 1988, the year before O’Neill was named Dean of College Admissions, the College received 5,377 applications, while for the 2009-2010 school year, the College received a record 13,589 applications (https://news.uchicago.edu/story/longtime-dean-admissions-ted-oneill-announcesplans-teach-full-time). So in 21 years under Ted O’Neill, Chicago increased its applications by 8,000 while under Nondorf, Chicago’s applications have skyrocketed to ~34,000 an increase of over 20,000 more applications in just 10 years. Under Nondorf, Chicago’s admit and yield rates have surpassed all its peers except H and S while Chicago’s entering classes have also never been academically stronger as measured by test scores, it’s athletic programs have never been more competitive as measured by its Director’s Cup standings and championships, and its student outcomes have never been better as measured by undergrad entry numbers into the highest paying occupations and professional schools. Whatever you may think of Nondorf, he is nothing if not a master sculptor (and perhaps genius marketer) and he and Zimmer are both fully earning their paychecks because are paid to increase Chicago’s eminence above all else.

If anything, Chicago should be doubling down on its investments in CS and Engineering and Bus Econ and Math and Stats and other quantitative subjects because these are the most eminent fields of today and the foreseeable future., along with continuing to shape its classes in every possible way to maximize the likelihood of producing the future leaders of society in multiple dimensions (politics, business, technology, science, medicine, law, public policy, academia). That is the primary purpose of elite universities even if you find it to be rather crass or too market driven because these universities are looking out for their best interest and as rational actors it’s in their best interest to do what they are doing.

This does not mean that Chicago shouldn’t try to distinguish itself from its peers by maintaining very rigorous academic standards and never wavering from its principles of free expression. In fact, the more that Chicago maintains these standards, the more likely its graduates will have the skills of critical thinking, excellent writing, and communication that their grade inflated Ivy peers may relatively lack (although you don’t want grade deflation either because this hurts outcomes). Caltech and MIT grads are super smart but are often perceived as narrow technocrats which can create a ceiling on attaining highest levels of leadership. Ideally, Chicago humanists should try to acquire hard quantitative skills and Chicago’'s STEM students should acquire the soft skills of negotiation, persuasion, and effective communication to lay people to maximize their leadership outcomes, and that is why the Core is essential to maintain for all students.

I’d recommend that everyone re-read that Newsweek article that @Cue7 posted upthread. Here’s the link again: https://www.newsweek.com/inside-admissions-game-164802

It’s a peek into the Pre-Nondorf admissions process at UChicago at a time when O’Neill proudly stated “We’re not ‘building a class,’ creating this ideal little world with so many of these and so many of those,” . . . “We accept the best, and hope to get as many as we can.” Indeed, according to the article Admissions doesn’t run the admitted list through the computer till the end. “Only then does Chicago learn that it has accepted 1,529 men and 1,631 women. Their average SAT score is about 1420. Their ethnicity, something that many applicants don’t divulge, still isn’t known in the aggregate. Chicago prides itself on using no gender, racial, geographic or other quotas in deciding whom to accept.”

  • This is consistent with what Cue has said about those days. (NB: it was around this time that the College's admit rate dropped to below 50% for the first time in decades or perhaps ever).

How different were those methods from today’s process, and how different is today’s class from that of the early aughts? Today the typical elite university’s admissions dept. - actually, ANY university admissions dept. - is run by seasoned professionals and assisted by sophisticated computer modeling. Best practices combined with technology and good ol’ marketing knowhow probably do maximize the number of qualified applicants (and even unqualified ones!). Institutional goals such as increasing the number of low income, URM, women in STEM, athletes, leaders, and so forth should be pretty easy to achieve.

UChicago didn’t report ethnicity on its class profile till around 2006 (Class of 2010). In those days, it reported about 14% URM (AA/Hispanic) and 15% Asian. White was reported under 50%, IIRC. However, a large segment simply didn’t self-identify as anything at the time. It’s possible that White was under-reported; or that Asian was, or that URM was. We don’t know. International representation was around 10%.

When Nondorf was clearly established at UC and number of applications increased to north of 25k, then some patterns emerged: every reported “non-white” racial group gradually crept up to current representations; Asian representation in the matriculating class increased about 25%, URM doubled. And international representation increased about 50%. Keep in mind that these proportional gains were happening in a time of enrollment growth, so the actual numbers of Asians, URM’s, Int’ls, etc. were growing faster than the overall population of the College.

However, scant as the data is from those “O’Neill days” they still show the same upward trend. For instance, in the two years prior to Nondorf, URM’s increased from 14% of the matriculating class to 20%! So there was definitely some “institutional targeting” going on back then, regardless of how the process unfolded. O’Neil even acknowledges this in the article, that while they don’t use quotas, they do give a bump to qualified minority candidates because they add a fresh perspective to the classroom.

Varsity athletics is an interesting one w/r/t data. I asked my son what percentage of the class in 2003 played a varsity sport in high school. “Um . . . 10?” Nope: it was 45%. In fact, prior to Nondorf they had over 50% of the class represented as high school athletes a couple of times. It’s consistently over 50% now, but even during Nondorf’s earlier days it wasn’t all that different from the O’Neill “we don’t build a class” era. O’Neill, in fact, likes athletes, observing that " smart athletes manage time well, and find unorthodox ways to succeed. He recalls a recommendation written years ago by a high-school football coach: “This boy reads poetry and physics in the locker room. I don’t have another one like him.” Does this sound all that different from what posters have testified about today’s UChicago’s own D3 athletes? No wonder they decided to build up that program.

Men/Women: O’Neill’s department consistently favored women; Nondorf’s consistently favors men. Which one is building the class, and which one isn’t? Or perhaps does the systemic gender bias have more to do with curriculum and majors? CS and ME are newer additions, for instance. Or - as Cue speculates - are they chasing high test scores? Per the article, the admissions committee seems to have the same overall views about test scores back then as they do today: highly correlated with grades, not generally useful on their own for an admissions decision, but useful for bragging purposes.

And, similar to what MwFan noticed for the Class of '23, it appears that UChicago admitted candidates who had low '20’s ACT’s even back in the early aughts (per the data). Not sure if that proves a “hook” as much as it confirms that the admission committee didn’t rely on the ACT for the whole story.

Geographic: With UChicago’s increase in popularity came a shift away from the traditional Midwest base that it relied on. Mid-Atlantic, New England, South, SW, and West were all the beneficiaries. Is this deliberate or is it the natural consequence of a rising reputation? the Adcom could certainly focus on admitting the best w/o regard to underlying geographics and still end up with a more diversified group, simply because “the best” is being chosen from a very large and geographical diverse applicant pool.

Rural/small town kids - a “clear” institutional priority via Empower - was a top priority back in O’Neil’s day as well, per the article. They’ve just kicked it into high gear recently.

Finally, as we learn in the article, the adcom had a preference for strong leadership and “focused devotion to a few deep interests” back then as well! The data from the early aughts confirms that the top three EC’s today - high school athletics, music, and community service - were the most popular back then too. The data show that high school EC participation has increased over the years; however, that might be a natural outcome of increased selectivity (they are admitting more “accomplished” students now) perhaps supplemented by the overall bump in EC activity among kids vying for top schools. For instance, currently over 80% of matrics have done “community service” which means a host of things from NHS to scouting to running an NGO.

Over the Nondorf years those EC participation rates have stabilized so it’s possible that Nondorf is “sculpting” for this characteristic a bit. But this stabilization tends to go hand in hand with the applicant numbers finally starting to flatten out. I’m guessing this is more of a “law of large numbers” phenomenon than anything else. If Nondorf has allowed his preferences to show up anywhere, it’s in high school athletics and theater as both jumped last year. Or . . . . that might just be something specific to the Class of '23.

In sum, I don’t see where UChicago has deviated much from its long-standing admissions practices. Any current institutional target now seems to have existed back then during the “we’re not building a class” era, perhaps with the exception of military vets and police and fire. And there doesn’t seem to be much (any?) evidence that any of those “institutional” goals supplant how they ultimately choose their admits. In the end, you still have to be a great fit for the school’s intense intellectual culture. I’ve noticed too many bright, high achieving kids who match several of Cue’s “institutional criteria” get dinged while unhooked kids get admitted. Those unhooked kids just had something that the hooked kids didn’t. (And, btw, that’s holding grades, course load and test scores constant!).

Oh, and those still counting up the number of estimated “hooks” at Chicago, a useful tidbit: in 2017 there were 3800 Odyssey scholars so that’s an average of about 380/year (the program was launched in 2007).

  • Perfect timing, @Cue7! See my post above. TLDR: I disagree with you that there is any fundamental difference then vs. now.

You are indulging in medieval quibbles in your number 94, Cue. An institution could have as its primary focus what I say it has but also have a variety of subsidiary interests and of ways and means to get to the primary one. That was why I took you to task for suggesting that there could be only one mission. You seem to be saying that there is either only one or that there are many incoherent ones. You don’t allow that an institution could have a focus such that a central mission could predominate but that there could be others ancillary to it. That’s the way it usually works in the world, isn’t it? A general principle or objective organizes multiple lesser characteristics. That is the old Aristotelian distinction between Substance and Accidents.

If you dislike “not being the preserve of the wealthy,” then let us say “being open to all regardless of socioeconomic status”. You are quibbling with me again. The point I am making is that the principal mission is not to raise the SES of the poorer students (though that may be a happy effect) but rather to give the poorer the same education as the rich because of the inherent worthwhileness of that education.

Transparency is simply a different issue altogether, unrelated to mission. And why in this discussion of Chicago’s mission should I concern myself with skiers at Dartmouth or Wyomingdons at Harvard?

Ah, my friend, @zoom10 , you are a hopeless case. Your conception of the sole purpose of a University as power, prestige, wealth, and influence put me in mind of Stalin’s rejoinder when told that the Pope objected to his killing a few million Russians: “The Pope? How many battalions does he have?” Stalin was just the latest in a long line of brutal realists, going back to Socrates’s first interlocutor in The Republic, Thrasymachus, who refuse to consider any question of the good, the beautiful, or the true. Nothing matters in their world but power. We all know that power matters (read your Thucydides if you don’t believe it), but is it the only thing that matters? Is it the sole measure of an institution or a person? Was Thrasymachus right after all? Was Stalin?

@JBStillFlying - a fundamental difference is retention and graduation rate, no?

Those have improved markedly over time - but you and I differ on the reasons for this trend.

Also, @Zoom10 - yes, I think you hit the nail on the head. An elite school’s primary purpose is to elevate its standing, vis a vis its peers. The goal isn’t really social mobility or expanding opportunity (although that may come into play)… it’s primarily concern about its own eminence.

It’s not the sculpting I find revolting - its this central premise. The primary purpose of an elite school is to be “better” than others. To me, that’s just… ugh.

This is why, schools only really change when they feel the heat. When the NY Times and others called out schools for low pell grant recipients, and the gov’t started a ranking about this, lo and behold! Schools shifted gears.

Reading all the varsity blues stuff, harvard lawsuit, etc. makes me blanch. I used to be all about standing and eminence, but the climate today just looks exhausting and patently inequitable.

As I said above, while at first I lamented the sculpting, I actually lament what’s behind it. The O’Neill/Behnke era certainly saw sculpting (as @JBStillFlying shows). Really, any time you admit a class, you’ll sculpt one way or another.

But, until the latter part of the Sonnenschein era, was Chicago admitting classes with the purpose of increasing its eminence?

Nowadays, I completely agree with what’s said above - so many reasons point to eminence being a key target sought. Caring about yield, caring about selectivity, focus on racial diversity, all these things - all these numbers that establish a pecking order - seem very much in play.

Was that always the case at Chicago?

And honestly, why can’t elite schools just say “we want students who will make us look better”? That seems like the most direct, honest marketing.

The guiding light for any applicant would be: “how am I making the school look better?” If the applicant doesn’t have characteristics the school seeks, s/he should know his/her chances aren’t great.

How many applicants approach elite college admissions that way - by asking why the school wants what it asks for?