I got in EA! Unfortunately the estimated financial aid is nowhere near enough, so I’m going to appeal.
Congrats to everyone accepted, and best of luck to those deferred/rejected!
Let’s suppose that U of C is offering additional scholarship money to certain kids that it really wants. Why would that be a problem? If you want to say that the ivies in all their prestige and magnificence don’t ever do this, you may be right for all I know. If you want to call it simply a trick to juice the numbers, as opposed to a means of permitting a highly desirable student to attend Chicago, then we are off again in the fever swamps of unlikely motivations.
Don’t know. Doesn’t matter that much. I was looking into numbers a bunch of schools since my daughter is a senior looking at colleges. They all seemed to play by the same rules - except UofC. Seemed like there was a consistent story there, which people on this thread might want be interested in or want to comment on
“If you look at the National Merit Scholar Corp. annual report you will see that UofC sponsors a large number of merit scholarships. No Ivy school does that. My NMS daughter (not interested in UofC) received letter from UC suggesting she could receive up to 20k merit scholarship. Didn’t get that letter from any Ivy.”
- UChicago gives out institutional funds in the form of merit. They also sponsor the $2k/year college-sponsored NMF award. Those two aren't the same thing. Some who are NMF might get institutional merit aid as well, of course, but it's not directly related to the NMF unless something has changed recently.
Your daughter’s offer of $20,000 sounds like one of the Empower scholarships:
UChicago Empower Scholarships
UChicago First-Generation College Student Scholarship
All first-generation college students will be awarded a $20,000 scholarship over four years. Awards are made to students whose parents did not attain a degree from a four-year college or university. First-generation applicants will automatically be considered and need not submit any additional materials beyond the application for admission.
“Remember TO is not the only way to avoid including SATs in reported data. In fact, Ivies generally report 60-80%ish taking SAT in CDS. UofC reports middle SAT range 0f 1500-1560 last year. Low end for Ivies like Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth etc. is more like 1400. One reason for this may be athletic recruiting, but probably does not account for whole disparity. Are these kids simply absent from OofC? Unlikely I think. Of course we don’t know how to account for this because we don’t have the data. Do we know why OofC (and maybe Columbia) is pretty much alone in not publishing CDS?”
- According to NCES, 53% of UChicago enrollees reported an SAT last year and 58% an ACT. Harvard is 69/47, Yale is 63/51 and Princeton is 68/55. Oh, and Columbia is 59/61. Not sure where you are going with this point? Are you trying to say that UChicago has only a few reported SAT's that happen to be high? That's not correct. What IS correct is that the 25th for SAT Math (750) is much higher than the 25'th for ACT (30). My son only took and submitted one SAT and he was slightly worried about that because his Math score was a 740. However, he's not a STEM kid so maybe it didn't matter.
Like all things UChicago, even UChicago EA/ED thread is different from all other EA/ED threads that I follow. (Or like all roads leading to Rome, no matter where it starts, it all ends up in the same place). Lol
Sounds less like a mysterious plot and more just a reflection that there are regional differences in whether most students in any given state take the SAT or instead take the ACT. The SAT is more commonly taken in states on the coasts and the ACT more commonly taken in midwestern states. Given its location, UChicago draws more midwestern applicants proportionally, so more of the applicants will have taken the ACT than SAT.
I would love to know what is acceptance rate of ED vs EA and also what are stats for the two groups.
I doubt it: “that special UChicago attitude” is just a myth promoted by UChicago admissions (and current and past students likely enjoy it) unless that special attitude is preppiness.
You really believe this? What makes those with “special UChicago attitudes” apply ED vs EA or RD? Is it the willingness to commit to the university even when one can’t afford going there if financial aid is insufficient? Of course not. Is EA a trap to weed out those untalented students who got good grades/scores only to ascend to elite status? What makes ED so successful in attracting true intellectuals?
Intellect, true passion for knowledge are required to spend evenings and nights reading books, solving problems, dreaming at night about them. Some ECs also require true passion, especially if circumstances are difficult.
Shadowing dad’s doctor co-workers, golfing, starting businesses are activities rarely performed by those who are not already in the elites. Attending model UN conferences is also not affordable to many.
Seems to me that ED is designed to select on money and status.
@ThoughtProcess1 - When UChicago introduced ED1/ED2, the average stats for that class was ACT 32 - 35 and SAT 1460 to 1550 - unchanged from the prior year which was the last year before ED. So no change. The following year, which was the last year prior to TO, the average stats increased a bit: ACT 33 - 35 and SAT 1490 - 1560.
Acceptance rates are probably around 4% for both EA and RD and perhaps as little as 10% for ED1/ED2. The early admit rate last year for the class of '23 was 7% for EA/ED1. So ED1 most likely isn’t some huge favorable rate. It’s “favorable” in that it isn’t 4%; but its not that high either.
@ThoughtProcess1 at #346, you are not up to speed with what’s been happening at UChicago w/r/t financial aid. UChicago has very significant financial aid available, including full rides, for specific sub-groups of under-represented. What’s to prevent any of those individuals from applying ED at that point if UChicago is their first choice? The financial barriers are significantly reduced or even removed.
You’re jerking my chain, @ThoughtProcess1 , but I don’t hear anything like an argument, only the stale canards we are used to hearing on this board.
If you don’t believe the U of C is somewhat different from its peers you won’t believe there is anything worth preserving about it and therefore you won’t believe it could possibly be using its admissions policy for that purpose. If you have that sort of take on the place you ought not to be applying to it under any admissions regime and wouldn’t be happy if you got in. Certainly no one should apply ED who is seeking only the best deal to be had from any of several interchangeable institutions. Nevertheless there are those who have quite a different attitude, who do really want to attend this school because they actually know something about it and long for its special culture. They are the ones who should be applying ED. Everyone accepted under any admissions regime is going to get an appropriate level of financial support in accordance with needs, one that is easily predictable. The place is not for everyone, only the right ones.
^ Regarding @marlowe1’s comment about who is applying ED, last year they rejected a whole lot of ED1’s (according to the conversation on the Class of '23 Facebook page) and deferred a relatively small number (compared to the prior two years). Not sure yet what’s going on this year but there are certainly ED1’s who have been rejected outright and probably some EA’s as well. Anyway, some of these applicants had their hearts set on UChicago so this comment isn’t directed to them. But if a whole lot of applicants opted for ED1 because they perceived it as an “easier” way to get into a top (but interchangeable) school, they were likely in for disappointment. This speaks to @surelyhuman’s comment in #325 that any arbitrage opportunity might have dissipated - even by last year. It’s seriously difficult to admit a whole lot of ED’s and maintain a 6% admit rate overall - your ED admit rate must be pretty low in order to make that happen!
But what about those admitted - were they just lucky ducks who were shooting for the “easier admit” among interchangable institutions and happened to get the winning lottery ticket? Anecdotally, I haven’t found that to be the case for the ED1’s - those kids tend to jump at the chance to apply because UChicago is a clear #1. The ED2 pool will obviously have a group of applicants who are opting (“settling?”) for Chicago rather than trying RD at whatever school they were deferred from. So I think this group can definitely be mixed; however, UChicago should have a competitive enough pool that they can pull right-fit admits from it. Some of the pool will consist of deferreds from early at UChicago; all else equal, some of those will be good fits and may have missed admission before simply because they didn’t apply ED. Like my D a few years ago. Some - like my son - will have two top preferences: an HYPS, and then UChicago; they are likely to be great fits for either school, but UChicago happened to love them back first.
UChicago also gives free rides to families whose income is under $125,000 as per their announcement:
UChicago will guarantee free tuition for families with incomes under $125,000 per year (with typical assets). Families earning less than $60,000 (with typical assets) will have tuition, fees, room and board covered by financial aid.
You really seem to have a very one-sided view about EA and RD applicants that ignores the realities. For us ED is not about first choice but rather it is about the uncertainties in the aid the we will get if applying ED. The question is: what if the offer that we will get is less than what we can afford? What are the options? Take a gap year? Of course when you do not have financial limitations the choice of ED is easy.
According to https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2018/12/4/early-decision-unfairly-favors-wealthy-applicants/
Yeah, ED works like a hospital: you have no idea how much the procedure will cost until you get the bill later in mail. Who decides whether an offer makes the attendance possible? If, on the other hand, the university could provide fin. aid offer before signing the agreement, that would have been a different story.
It’s easy to have that special U of C attitude when you can afford it.
You are voicing a reasonable and very frequently made criticism of ED, @ThoughtProcess1 , seen not only in the Maroon but often on this board.
For those who do not look into the matter very deeply it can seem daunting to make the commitment that ED requires. Those who do look into it - not only through reading University materials and using its calculator but through reading accounts of parents as set forth on this board - would be able to assure themselves that they will be dealt with fairly and should be able to make a reasonable calculation of the actual amount of the aid they will receive if accepted. Those who are unwilling to do this work or who distrust the University so thoroughly that they don’t believe anything they read ought not to be at the University.
Of course there is also the escape hatch provided to those who feel they simply cannot attend with the FA package they receive. I understand that provision is hardly ever exercised, which should in itself be a data point for the bona fides and fairness of the process.
A larger class of parents will be focussed simply on obtaining the very best deal they can, perhaps through going back to the University after an RD acceptance with a competing offer in hand. That’s a reasonable strategy, but anyone adopting it ought not to whine about the preferential effects of ED: they have elected to give up whatever advantage they might have had in that pool for the sake of deal-making. Such people may very well be good students of the sort the University would want, and some of them may in the end make a marginally better deal by entering through that route; but I do not have much tenderness for them: they show by their actions that they lack the special commitment to the University demonstrated through ED.
The effect of all this is that it does put an onus on kids and their parents who do not have mega-parental wealth to do their homework and therefore it does discourage some of them who do not do that, or do not believe what they would discover if they do, or prefer to look for the best deal in town. What the actual demographic effect of this is remains to be seen. The anecdotal evidence on this board suggests to me that plenty of kids of modest financial background apply and are accepted ED, as would be expected given the foregoing analysis. No doubt there is an overall skewing in the College towards a wealthier demographic, a phenomenon that is lamentable but exists at all the elite schools these days and of course especially the ivy schools. Historically it has not existed at the U of C, which tended to take its tone from the large numbers of middle- and lower-middle class kids that formed the principal part of its student body. That’s a shame, but this development is bigger than and predates the introduction of ED. In the minds of many of us whatever specific effect is attributable to ED in that direction is nevertheless a more than reasonable trade-off in order to obtain a class in which a dominant majority have made this school their first choice and thus will not forever be lamenting the loss of some other dream school.
I am a little confused by the “If you care about financial aid, then you shouldn’t apply ED” argument.
Chicago and many of it’s peers are very clear about how they approach aid
$$0-60k income and you get full ride
$$60k-125k income and you get full tuition
Anything over $125k, you can use the NPC and figure out what you are very likely to get. Just as a gut check you can run this with different assumptions to see the range and can compare with peer schools. This is what our guidance counselor advised all students to do at our school.
If the actual aid doesn’t match the NPC you have a legitimate reason to get out of your ED agreement
Given the above, I think ED at Chicago seems not to benefit rich applicants or penalize poor applicants as the Maroon says, but rather seems to penalise uninformed applicants of all classes who don’t know their rights and options
One interesting thought experiment would be to speculate how the applicant pool would change if Chicago instead had just an REA option where you couldn’t apply to any other private schools in the REA round but had till May to decide.
This could ferret out the uninterested who are just masquerading as the uninformed
At a FinAid session our councelor told us a different story. If it were that easy to get out of the ED agreement it should be easy for U of C to have a statement such as “If offered finaid exceeds NPC estimate, student can get out of ED agreement”. I have not seen anything like this.
You always assume the worst about non-ED applicants, aren’t you? Not loving U of C, having U of C as a backup, uninterested but pretending to be. Yeah, uninterested who spend 2 weeks on U of C essays, visiting campus (to hear Jim saying that there is nothing wrong with just participating in EC: you don’t have to be a president or a treasurer) and falling in love with it and dreaming about it all ever since.
I do appreciate U offering full tuition. But there are other expenses not covered. Current NPC for us is above what we can afford without taking loans. Will we be able to get a loan? I do not know. What if the offer is worse even by a couple of thousands? I would like to simply be a responsible person and make an informed decision without getting into a situation where we have to choose between taking a gap year or moving to projects.
From where you are, things may look different to you, I understand that.
^ the ED agreement specifies the terms of release. Others who have had to get out of their ED agreement due to finances have posted that UC is very good about this. ED is not an option to attend; if you are full pay, for instance, and wish to consider other schools you might find yourself in hot water. Schools differ on that circumstance, but some have been strict enforcers of the agreement with those who are exhibiting bad faith. However, when financial need is added to the equation, it tends to be a different story.
The NPC is not an offer of financial aid, but the FA office told me that because schools are required to provide this information, they basically can’t highball your aid then show something completely different when you get your actual offer. As long as your inputs are correct, the NPC will be accurate or even overestimate your EFC a bit. We found that to be the case a few years ago with my daughter, though other posters have found the NPC to be very accurate for them. It might depend on your financial situation.
UChicago does indeed offer Stanford loans, if requested.
Not everyone will qualify for FA, even if funds realistically are needed. Significant non liquid assets, or investments that are the parents’ non-401k retirement are just two examples of how your assets can work against you.
Most find that talking to the FA office of the respective school goes a long way toward clearing up any uncertainties about the process.
@ThoughtProcess1 The way I read the ED agreement, the escape clause is even simpler than the NPC statement you would prefer
You can walk if you can’t afford it. If it ever becomes an issue, your can show them the NPC estimate to prove that you made a good faith effort but it is the school that came up short. I am certain no elite school will go after any kid who does this. The scenario of schools complaining or taking action only applies if the school suspects that the applicant is deliberately gaming the system and being a bad actor. And even that action is not legal.
Now the case you bring up is when the NPC doesn’t give you the aid estimate that you would like. That’s an entirely different problem. For such an applicant, yes not applying ED makes perfect sense if you want to shop offers, but then you gain that flexibility at the cost of being in a pool with lower admit rate.
What you seem to want, if I read you correctly is the flexibility to be in a pool with an higher admit rate at an elite school but with the surety of getting a financial aid offer that you want, not what the NPC for the school predicts. And you want this surety before you commit to the school
That’s a tough spot to be in, since I am not aware of any such school that would meet this requirement, but I could be wrong.
I sincerely hope you find the best school that meets your requirements. Good luck and best holiday wishes
A few points:
First of all, a UChicago education - like at any other top private - is going to be a financial sacrifice, so it’s up to each family to determine whether that sacrifice makes sense to them. This discussion happens on CC every year. It’s really about how you perceive the value of the education at this particular institution.
Second of all, if excessive EC’s were the ticket to getting into UChicago then my own kids wouldn’t be there now. But excessive EC’s would likely make very little sense in an application to UChicago anyway. You shouldn’t be so involved that the adcom gets the feeling you spend very little time on schoolwork and your grades inflated rather than reflective of real academic achievement. UChicago isn’t like some other elite privates where the student body is famous for not attending class because they are too involved in campus EC’s (including running non-profits and the like). At UChicago they expect you to attend class. Yes, students are involved in EC’s - some are heavily involved. But they are still expected to attend class first. It is, after all, an institution of higher learning. So - best guess is that a few, well-chosen activities that complement or enhance your HS experience and demonstrate your dedication and character go much farther with the adcom than a full resume that doesn’t even have space to list your HS academic accomplishments.
Third, as we’ve seen, a good number of academically qualified applicants won’t even be deferred and many who don’t have perfect stats will be admitted - and why? Because there was something about their application that spoke to the adcom. From an outside perspective it appears to be a largely random process; however, the adcom is very likely doing a lot more than rolling the dice. Every school offers something distinctly different from its peers and when the selectivity level is as high at it is for the T10, they are able to pick and choose among some amazing qualifications in order to build the class they want. UChicago is no different from other T10 schools in this.
Fourth, they have been very up front about the fact that if UChicago is your first choice you should apply ED, which is why they offer it both for the early and regular admissions deadlines. That doesn’t mean you are always able to do do. Sometimes the finances simply can’t support it and you need merit to make it happen. I’ve seen this in at least one other case. It turned out well because the family had reached out to Admissions early on. It was clear to all that this applicant would apply ED if possible and that Chicago was a clear first choice school. What I’ve observed (anecdotal as it is) is that the school is wonderful about helping out as best they can if they want the applicant to attend.