I think you are reading too much into things. kids who need more resources are likely to find them at a smaller place. I think my friend’s kid had a lot of help from professors and he thrived. I am not sure you can command those sorts of resources at a larger public where a ton more kids are coming in with questions to the office hours.
Well, I wouldn’t call it “hand holding” either.
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Important to distinguish among small colleges, private universities, public universities, and public university honors colleges when speaking of resources.
Some folks prefer to live in small towns/communities, while others prefer cities.
Some see limitations in small environments, while others see individual attention as important. More freedom & more options is important to some, while intimacy & familiarity is important to others.
UCLA doesn’t have a lecture hall that large. IIRC the biggest is about 500 seats. The basketball arena is used for very large events (Bruin Day, graduation, etc.).
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No, I don’t think I am.
Large and small schools, selective and non-selective, have kids who need help or clarifications or guidance. I mean, it’s college, it’s the norm. I agree with you that they are more likely to find them at a smaller place. That’s what I value in the smaller place. So, I think we agree.
I just don’t agree that access to those resources, or the provision of them, is adequately described as hand holding, though it is the term that tends to be used in these contentious discussions.
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If somebody is going to claim that one school is academically better than another, it’s fair to question the underlying premises for that claim. As we’ve established, individuals may disagree with those premises. That said, claiming that a private school like BC is academically better than one of the nation’s highest ranked, best resourced, and most popular public universities (it could have just as well have been Berkeley, Michigan, etc.), is a fairly hot take without elaboration given the implications. Would any public university even break the top 100 schools academically, particularly if LACs are considered? And if such best-of-the-best public universities are academically inferior to so many privates, what does it mean for the less-elite publics?
Anyhow, while I don’t think we actually disagree much, I suspect that you’ve misinterpreted what I wrote. Alternatively, I wasn’t very articulate. I don’t think I implied that class size and funding are irrelevant to academic quality. Nor do I think I ever suggested that different people can’t value different things in evaluating academic quality. To be clear, I think class size and endowment-per-student are undoubtedly relevant considerations in evaluating a school’s academic quality, but, and perhaps this is where our agreement splits, I probably give less weight to such considerations and I certainly don’t think they’re dispositive. In any event, I agree that there are academic advantages and disadvantages to UCLA and BC.
I raised the auditorium example because “auditorium classes” seem like a something of a bugbear on this forum, akin to “Greek life.” My point wasn’t that auditorium classes are necessarily as effective as smaller classes; it was that such classes don’t seem to affect UCLA students’ experience—as measured by things like retention rate and student satisfaction—as much as many seem to assume. To elaborate through anecdote, I certainly wouldn’t have wanted a higher proportion of auditorium classes and probably got more out of my smaller classes at UCLA. That said, I actually liked having an auditorium class once a semester, some of which were truly outstanding. YMMV, but I had little desire the Socratic method in classes like Astronomy 101.
I assume you’re mentioning Pomona because that’s where my daughter ended up. To be honest, that line of discussion veers uncomfortably toward ad hominem. In any event, my daughter didn’t choose Pomona over UCLA because UCLA simply wasn’t an option. We’re out of state, which made UCLA unaffordable for us. As you note, I can definitely see advantages and disadvantages to both. All things being equal, it probably would have been a tough choice, not that it was mine to make.
Lest there be any confusion, I’m not advocating for UCLA over BC. As someone noted above, I think fit is the most important consideration. And I’m also not claiming that UCLA is academically superior to BC. I was trying to (1) push back or at least understand the claim that BC is superior to UCLA academically and (2) offer a little personal perspective on UCLA.
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Maybe not. But Berkeley does:
And I know specifically that they have also had trouble with overflow even in this room for popular classes.
Maybe UCLA is unique among large state flagships. In that case, it would seem BC has nothing to offer over the choice of attending UCLA.
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I just looked it up as well out of curiosity. I think 450 is the largest one. It doesn’t matter really.
My advice to people is if you need a lot of lower division courses, need help with coursework, and have lots of money to pay private, go to a smaller private school. I wouldn’t go to a large public for premed personally because it’s hard to get grades and classes.
If you need access to a lot of upper division, don’t need help with coursework, larger schools can be great, and public ones can save you money.
I also heard USC, which is a private school that charges $90k I believe, also has classes with hundreds of kids for lower division.
Different things for different kids. Really. There is no perfect answer.
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BC is not like Pomona College. It is not a tiny LAC with 1600 students. Even its consortium can’t compete with BC, which has over 9000 students. Wondering why Pomona has come up.
I will paste my earlier comment here because context matters:
Smaller setting does not always mean LAC. My university had about 30,000 students and I had some small classes. In general, BC will have smaller classes over the course of a four year degree. UCLA will also have small classes, especially as students progress in their college career.
If anyone thinks a 400-student lecture hall will provide a better academic experience, I will always disagree with you.
My son attended a medium-sized rigorous state U. His classes were really hard. But they were hard without the fun that often comes with learning in a smaller environment. My D at the sub-2000 LAC enjoyed the vast majority of her classes, while it is probably fair to say that my son mostly did not. He did have some small classes and he definitely enjoyed those more than the big classes he had. Sample of two.
Really, the OP’s child needs to get along with her team and be happy about the environment. UCLA is in a sprawling, decentralized big city, albeit a relatively nice enclave of that city. BC is in a lovely manicured suburb with a gothic campus and easy transport to a compact city. Apart from weather and size, the two colleges probably have more in common than it seems at first glance.
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I didn’t use that term. My original point was that to thrive at UCLA you need to be a self-starter, because the opportunities are hugely competitive. So it didn’t seem odd for my S to just apply online for something and compete with hundreds of other applicants.
And I know it’s the way the world works, but actually I was pretty annoyed that a prestigious think tank would offer a back door for professors at certain colleges to garner opportunities for their students. It made me wonder what the quid pro quo is in terms of invitations to speak, visiting lectureships and fellowships in the future. Great for those students, not great for society. So yes, I do view that negatively, even though it’s not the students’ fault.
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I agree. It seems weird to me that a phrase with a negative connotation such as hand holding is attached to something as objectively positive as the ability to seek out extra help if needed.
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I would also look at degree requirements. I have another child applying to schools and he is interested in multiple things, so my advice has been to look at LACs because you often need 10 classes for a degree and can get three degrees easily in four years. I can’t imagine that scenario at UCLA.
I would look at BC and see what degree requirements look like and compare. That might answer some questions.
Oh, and think about quarter versus semester system! Not everybody loves the quarter system. We have mixed feelings here. With some exceptions, semester courses are condensed into 10 weeks. Take physics. What you would cover in lower division physics in a semester system in two years is condensed down to four quarters at UCLA. That still gives you two more quarters in that two year period to take other classes. This isn’t true of all courses. Relatively few semester courses have been stretched into two quarters and some two semester sequences into three quarters (quantum comes to mind), but in majority of cases semester long courses run in 10 week marathons. Not everybody’s cup of tea.
Also unlike semester based schools, UCLA starts late September and runs into mid June. Again I have heard many complain about internship start times.
Definitely research this aspect while making the decision.
I’ve been reading this thread with interest because my D22 is a rising third year at UCLA and because I’m a parent who initially believed she would be better suited to a LAC or a private school for all of the reasons that often get stated here. My D22 chose the big public over my crush school, Kenyon, and Smith. (Money was not a factor in the decision at the time.)
One thing that has surprised me about my D’s experience at UCLA has been how much she has LEARNED to hustle. She has always been a motivated student, but not necessarily someone willing to push herself out of her comfort zone. And, not surprisingly, she was rejected from her fair share of clubs freshman year and her first quarter sophomore year.
Fast forward to winter and spring quarter, and she brushed herself off and applied for a slew of new things. She interviewed, she showed up to every event, she networked in a way I would have not believed possible. And she landed some terrific opportunities, including a selective professional club, a literary journal, a marketing internship, and more. She learned from watching others and she gained life skills that will serve her well forever. I don’t know that she would have learned those things had the competition not been fierce.
All to say, who your kid is at 17 or 18 is not who your kid is at 20 or 21. Sending my kid into the belly of the UCLA beast and watching her emerge with hard-earned victories is a delight I didn’t expect. Is UCLA perfect? No. But it’s pretty amazing on many levels.
As for the decision OP needs to make, paying a visit to UCLA and meeting the team will probably illuminate a lot of things. I’m sure a wonderful experience can be had at both schools.
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You can find even large publics touting small classes in their honors colleges. Why would they mention it if small classes and personal attention from the prof wasn’t an advantage?
Plan II will provide you with small, discussion-based courses where you can really get to know your classmates and professors.
Plan II Honors Program | Liberal Arts | UT - Austin
The Morehead Honors College is committed to providing the best for our students. Through small class sizes, internship programs, travel-study funding, research opportunities, faculty connections, scholarship support, early registration, and alumni networks, we open doors to the best the university has to offer.
About - UGA Morehead Honors College
and so on…
That all said, there seem to be two discussions here. First is large vs small college. Second is advice for the OP, assuming they are still reading the thread. If so I’d say that as an athlete the D will have many advantages over the normal UCLA undergrad. To wit:
- free tutoring
- early registration so she’ll get all her classes, and at the times she wants
- a dedicated career counselor
- an academic counselor to review her schedule each term
- priority in dorm selection
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Yes indeed. And there should only be one.
That should be the first…and only.
Let’s return the focus to the OP everyone
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Here’s our take on UCLA pros and cons:
Pros
- My kid has had some truly fantastic, top of their field professors. A history teacher awarded a presidential medal for teaching by Obama, an astronomy professor who discovered the Kuiper Belt. These people have been welcoming at office hours and sometimes even insist that students come by. My kid has switched up her major a few times now, has landed on history and communications, and will still graduate in 4 years and study abroad.
- UCLA is a friendly, outgoing school. It’s very easy to meet people, there are a lot of extroverts, and the work hard/play hard rep is real. Parties are common Thurs-Saturday, the football and basketball games are fun, as are a lot of other sports, the traditions are great… it’s just a fun place to be. The campus vibe is exciting and you can feel that—it’s what sold my daughter on picking the school. My daughter has a group of close friends and so many other friends that she can’t walk through campus without seeing a handful of people she knows and likes. You might not expect that for a such a big school, but it really does cultivate a sense of community and belonging.
- Food: seriously a pro. My kid has expanded her palette, been able to choose from a huge variety of high quality, healthy food. UCLA is often ranked #1 for food and they even publish a cookbook so people can make the recipes they serve on campus. (We have been trying to perfect their lemon oregano vinaigrette this summer!)
- Campus: it’s gorgeous. Beautiful architecture, lots of trees and places to hang a hammock, views, the works. There are a lot of stairs but you adjust. They don’t call it the University of Calves Legs and Ass for nothing.
- Location: Westwood is a great college town in West LA. It’s safe, beautiful and easily accessed from campus. The kids have their favorites for sushi, diner food, ice cream, etc. The movie theaters host premieres—my D spotted Brad Pitt at her orientation weekend. The beach is a short bus ride away. LA is also terrific for finding jobs and internships.
- Class size/class management: I know a lot of people think this is a con, but my kid has enjoyed learning in a variety of ways. Her large classes always have a small 20 person discussion section, where a TA reviews content, grades papers, etc. She has also had small classes that were held outside on the lawn with a teacher. She likes the variety.
Cons:
- Class registration can be tricky. There are ways around it and you do end up with what you need, even if it’s not when you originally wanted it. Kids use Coursicle, BruinWalk, and each other to land their schedules. It helps to be flexible. Plenty of kids stick around for a summer session (OOS kids pay in state rates for summer)
- Politics can play a real and disruptive role in the experience. Last year’s protests and counter protests led to cancelled classes, police presence and a lot of anger. I hope next year and the following will be calmer. There’s a new chancellor starting in January, so we will see how that plays out. But UCLA is a public institution and can’t kick off/manage protestors as easily as private schools since the land is public. The UC labor union is also quite active and protested their contract my daughter’s fist year. My kid is pro-union and she has learned a lot from these experiences but it can disrupt class activities when the TAs strike since papers don’t get graded quickly and discussion classes are not held.
- Lack of career services/support. To me this is a big con and somewhere ucla could stand to improve. They have Handshake and other typical job websites but with such a fantastic rep worldwide, I’d love to see more support and connection to internships and job placement activities. That said, my kid has had 2 internships that she has found on her own. She’s learned to hustle as I mentioned before, and I think it’s good practice for the real world. But I expected more from such a renowned institution.
— there are other small things I see flare up on the FB parents page… broken washing machines in dorms, kids setting off fire alarms in dorms, long lines for popular food trucks, that kind of thing.
All in all, my kid has been very happy and she is glad she chose UCLA. We do pay in-state so that colors our perspective on some of the cons. If you are paying OOS, you’ll have to weigh the cons against the price tag
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I think with all the great responses you have - and so many are valid from Jesuit to public, weather and I think the team travel and your ability to see more - all key - but in the end, I think this is more important than anything anyone has said:
Hopefully D can visit both prior to decision.
I hope you can make that happen!!!
Well, as I expected, we’re being told to keep it on topic, so I’ll limit my response to answering one question you asked and clarify a point you raised:
Yes, I chose Pomona deliberately because your daughter chose it.
I don’t understand your concern about ad hominem in this context, but in any event, none was intended on my part. The point was simply to pick an clear example of the “other” to defend that other. No, BC is not a LAC, but that’s the context in which the discussion normally takes place, and the things that BC can offer as advantages over UCLA are in the same category as those raised by proponents of LACs. Without those things qualifying as advantages, which you seem to recognize, BC has nothing to offer over UCLA (unless, like me, one very clearly prefers Boston to LA).
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OP, I can understand why you don’t want to identify your child’s sport, for reasons of anonymity. But is there a reason you haven’t responded to multiple queries about her academic interests? Intended major and potential career goals provide pretty important context for a “which school is better” question.
For a varsity athlete at an academically demanding university, factors related to the surrounding area may not be the top priority, as the student may not end up with a whole lot of free time anyway! Weather might matter if the sport is played outside; or it might matter very little if it isn’t. The amount of travel that will be necessary could indeed have a significant impact, as others have said.
Visiting should be a top priority, both to experience the campus vibe generally, and even more so to assess fit with the team. Nothing anyone contributes here could possibly substitute for that direct experience. If this were my child, committing to a D1 team without a visit would not be an option. There’s too much that can go wrong with this dominant part of a student-athlete’s life, to commit without in-person vetting.
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