<p>BMWdude, can you explain?</p>
<p>The two schools differ in a number of ways:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Rutgers-New Brunswick is not really one unified campus at all, but rather five different campuses, each of which has a full range of services. Students move between the campuses by bus. The central campus (College Ave) has a very urban feel.</p></li>
<li><p>The dominant culture of the student body at Penn State is central Pennsylvanian-rural small town. The dominant culture of the student body at Rutgers is suburban/urban.</p></li>
<li><p>Rutgers is more racially diverse.</p></li>
<li><p>Penn State alumni are fanatically loyal–very rah rah about the school. Rutgers alumni as a group are not.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>^^^
I would agree with this…except I would characterize Penn State as having a classic college town. Small rural town doesn’t seem to do it…the town really revolves around the students. Cheap restaurants, clothing stores, bars, all the services you could need including bike shops, hair cutteries, etc. </p>
<p>As to whether or not it’s worth paying OOS, that really depends on the student and program. I don’t think there’s any blanket answer here. PSU tends to be more attractive to students than Rutgers…you don’t see many PA students paying out of state rates at Rutgers…</p>
<p>My NJ D started at UDel. She got a good merit scholarship so it was relatively inexpensive. Rutgers would’ve been free, but she disliked the idea of the divided up campuses with the bus routes, plus they screwed up and did not accept her into Honors (Yes, I know that sounds snooty. All the other schools she applied to heavily recruited her into their Honors programs, including UDel and others ranked much higher than RU. She would’ve been a Bloustein scholar at RU–thus the free tuition–and had stats much, much higher than the average honors. That’s why I used the words screwed up). Anyway, the fact that the she wouldn’t be in Honors, plus the campus difference, led her to UDel. That being said, she was disappointed in the latter. Very undiverse, and a dominant drinking culture was oppressively present–this was nine years ago, of course. Things may be different.</p>
<p>I think she’d have been happier at RU (or actually at TCNJ). But she ultimately transfered to an LAC, so maybe it was the whole big college thing. But even with their logistical challenges, I’d now encourage RU over UD.</p>
<p>My kids attended both a famous private school and a large public academic magnet school in Philadelphia. Penn State is way less popular at both schools than one would expect. The urban kids attracted to their in-state public universities generally choose Temple (local) or Pitt (if they want to be farther from home), even those at the top of the class who could treat Penn State as a safety. That probably explains EMM1’s characterization of Penn State as having a small-town central Pennsylvania culture – it simply doesn’t get the strongest urban students. (I think it does get strong students from the suburbs, though, especially the newer, farther-out ones.)</p>
<p>Rutgers is barely on the radar screen for these out-of-state kids.</p>
<p>UDelaware is zooming in popularity. Five or six years ago, hardly anyone went there. This year, the private school is sending 5% of its class there (and none to Penn State or Rutgers), and it has been pulling in lots of kids from the public school for several years, including strong students. It clearly has a positive buzz about it. I have the impression that merit scholarships were involved in several cases, but I’m not sure.</p>
<p>It’s funny…we have family members in Delaware whose children attend very selective private schools in that state. UDEL is at the BOTTOM of their list… I can’t even describe the looks on their faces when it comes up. Bottom of the barrel as far as they’re concerned. Penn State and UMD are popular choices. </p>
<p>It just goes to show that many instate kids don’t appreciate what’s in their own backyard. </p>
<p>Rutgers seems like a fine choice to me if you’re in state and money is a big issue. </p>
<p>And yes, JHS, I’m not surprised that urban kids are picking Temple and Pitt over Penn State. But I still think many rule out Penn State, thinking it’s a big farm with nothing to do. I was one of them who thought that until I visited. It’s really a pretty vibrant place for a college student…most love the college town atmosphere. And football DOES dominate and bond kids to the school. So if you really don’t like football or athletics in general, probably NOT a good choice. Me, I think it’s fun and I’m happy to be a “football parent” now, as a graduate of a school with a horrible athletic program.</p>
<p>I don’t know exactly what it is. Before my kids got to be college-age, I expected that x% of their classmates would go to Penn State. It just turns out that x is a lot closer to 0 than I thought it would be. Now, none of these kids comes from a big football culture, but plenty of them like sports. They feel they can get that at Delaware, Pitt, or Temple, and they can. I think they see Penn State as a sea of suburban and small-town white kids getting drunk at frat parties and going out to tip cows, and it just doesn’t sound appealing. (There are some ethnic-group differences here. Penn State seems much more attractive to ethnic Chinese students than to other groups, and many of the kids who DO go to Penn State from these schools are ethnic Chinese.)</p>
<p>The popularity of Delaware is a brand new thing. I think it was a very esoteric choice for kids in my daughter’s high school class (2005) – no private school and only a couple of public school kids went there. But by last year (2008), it was clearly getting its share of public school kids who might have expected to get into Penn in previous years (i.e., top 5% of class), and a couple of private school kids, and this year its numbers about doubled in both schools.</p>
<p>Impressions are hard to break - and it goes both ways. I think it makes it easier for kids…and parents…to put schools in boxes vs. really checking them out. Out here in the suburbs, very few kids, if any, choose Temple. If you’d ask you might find that they think it’s a below-average school in gritty unsafe inner city area. Some still think it’s primarily a commuter school (as it was in the past). Horrible football program, decent basketball. Sooo…they don’t look. If they did, some might change their minds…I know Temple has a lot to offer and is on it’s way up. It’s annoying how quickly kids dismiss it around here.
Same with PSU. It’s easy to throw it in a box…but come on…it’s so big that most can find a niche there. I know arts students, nerdy brainy types and your typical jocks. All of them happy. And you have to go pretty far to tip cows…really there are none on the immediate campus!<br>
Yes, UDel is pretty hot here in the suburbs too. Just don’t ask kids from that state what they think!
And Pitt is getting more popular too… a good choice for lots of kids.</p>
<p>Just to throw in – son got into both PSU & Rutgers (didn’t like UDel after a visit) and the PSU out of state tuition was just exhorbitant. Rutgers instate was still not that much of a deal, but it was about half of PSU. He ended up going out of state to another school w/full-tuition scholarship, but did closely consider Rutgers & PSU. Money was a big, big factor.</p>
<p>jolynne…I remember your story…hope your son is doing well! (Alabama?)
Yeah, PSU is really expensive OOS. But about 25% of the students decide it’s worth it.</p>
<p>My daughter is at Pitt, so please post or PM me if you have any questions. We are New Yorkers. The OOS tuition is currently $22,500 annually. Room and board adds another $9,000, depending on the dorm you pick. It is a lot of money, but Pitt has given full-tuition scholarships to kids scoring over 1450 (M/CR) on the SATs. No word if that will continue this year, though, with the budget cuts. It’s a wonderful deal if your student qualifies.</p>
<p>“I would agree with this…except I would characterize Penn State as having a classic college town. Small rural town doesn’t seem to do it…the town really revolves around the students. Cheap restaurants, clothing stores, bars, all the services you could need including bike shops, hair cutteries, etc.”</p>
<p>I was not clear on this aspect of my description. I was trying to describe the dominant culture of the student body, not the lcoation fo the university. Of course, Happy Valley is a great, traditional college town. </p>
<p>With respect to JHS’s point about Rutgers, the university simply makes no effort to attract out of state students; I think it has something to do with the funding formula adopted by the legislature.</p>
<p>“Pitt has given full-tuition scholarships to kids scoring over 1450 (M/CR) on the SATs.”</p>
<p>Far from automatic. S2 (who was very interested in Pitt) had 34 on the ACT, about 13% class rank at a raltively small, highly competitive public high school. Was offered zippo in merit aid last year. Called the admissions office and was told six students with higher GPA’s from his school had applied (I guess Pitt was the safety school du jour). S2 went elsewhere and I’m betting that the six other kids did too.</p>
<p>Their loss.</p>
<p>Yes, the Pitt merit scholarships are (a) very attractive, (b) competitive, not automatic, and (c) attainable, but not automatic.</p>
<p>The standard for Delawareans to be accepted to UDel is MUCH lower than for OOS. Basically, if the admissions office is confident that you won’t fail once you get there, you’ll get in. They continue to do a lot of in-state recruiting; maybe the legislature isn’t happy with in-staters being a minority. I personally don’t like PSU or UMD any more, but I have lots of friends who do and are applying.</p>
<p>I was shooting for Pitt’s scholarship and an OOS safety school, but found the campus too urban.</p>
<p>One local top IB HS has sent 35 kids to Udel this year, all of them were top 5-10% . Unheard of before, this school usually would send same ranked kids to privates, not this year. Although this same school got scorched by U of Maryland last year, so they had much fewer apply than usual. UMD typically was the hot school prior for those that choose OOS publics.</p>
<p>I’m the parent of PSU sophomore, and a NJ suburbs resident. D applied to and was accepted at all 3 -among others,although admittedly only applied to Rutgers because we made her!</p>
<p>Academically, Rutgers is a very good school, but sorry the campus feel is sorely lacking. I actually find it almost depressing, and is the schools biggest turnoff I think. I don’t think they get many out of state because the attraction is just not there due to the campus; I don’t think they would get the kids even if they made an effort. Its main appeal for in state is the value perceived; cost vs quality. Only 1 of the kids in my D’s circle went there, even though many got in; they all went to OOS publics or privates. </p>
<p>D ‘liked’ UDel, but PSU was first choice. We are from suburban NJ (central about 45 minutes from NYC), so not ‘urban’ and not country. D loves the college town feel, and the convenience of having what she feels she really ‘needs’ right there. I guess of course she has the luxury of going to the beach or NYC (or Short Hills Mall lol) on breaks and summers, so having a ‘self contained’ school/campus feels ‘just right’ to her for the school year. As we heard from many people when considering schools, PSU may be huge, but you just have to (and WILL) find your niche, and your group of friends. Whatever your ‘type’ , they are there, and easy to find. She doesn’t find the dominant culture to be ‘country’, but maybe thats because she has ‘friended’ people that are more like her. Most of her friends are from the Philly or Pittsburgh suburbs. </p>
<p>She thought UDel was ‘nice’, and the campus pretty , but the school spirit of PSU just ‘wowed’ her and won her over. She loves saying she goes to Penn State! UDel may be up and coming, but PSU seems to have been perennially ranked rather well for a long time, and has the name factor everywhere.</p>
<p>As a parent, I was happy that she chose PSU, although it was the most expensive option. The campus is attractive; although LARGE, the main area is very manageable. I do love the college town aspect of it as well, and although there is obviously crime, I feel safe with her there. There will be plenty of time later in life for her to go clubbing in the cities, but for four years she’s content to be in the (Happy) Valley.</p>
<p>“I was not clear on this aspect of my description. I was trying to describe the dominant culture of the student body, not the lcoation fo the university.”
Well, I don’t agree with that picture either. My son’s friends are largely from the Philly and Pittsburgh areas, with others mixed in (like Harrisburg, Boston, NY, South Jersey, even Dallas). Hardly country or rural folk. Bottom line, there is a huge mix, including a significant international population. It’s really wrong to paint a broad brush picture of white rural types or frat boys (the frat population is under 15%). </p>
<p>All that said, there most certainly is a “feel” to the campus and some don’t quite like it. Kids walk around in their school sweatshirts and yell “We Are”. Yes, most drink a lot ( you’ll find that on lots of campuses) and they do LOVE their football. The staff and faculty are friendly and approachable. The weather is miserable. They have some top notch programs and some that are not so great. Most kids love it there…they have a high freshman rate and a good graduation rate. It’s a good choice for some kids…and it’s even worth the OOS price if the fit and the program is right.</p>
<p>I actually know only two kids who have gone to Penn State in the past 10 years. (Which, given that I have college-age kids, know a lot of people, and live in Pennsylvania, is a nice little illustration of the curious unpopularity of Penn State down here.) I was all high on Penn State because of one of them, a current student, though – a really nice, engaging guy, smart and apparently committed to his studies and activities. Until he failed to graduate on time because he couldn’t get the required courses, and hadn’t gotten the advising to help him anticipate and handle the problem in advance. What a disaster!</p>
<p>The other was the not-so-high-achieving second child from a high-achievement family. She was in the honors college, and got excellent grades, but worked maybe 25% as hard as her sister who was at Duke at the same time. For her first couple of years, she double-majored in Sorority and Going to Parties. Then, tragedy struck her family, and her sorority “sisters” responded by ostracizing her. (Something I would not have thought possible, and that very much supports the proposition that the vibe there is small-town.) So she had to switch majors, and to concentrate a bit more on academics. Her curriculum and course work were never that impressive, but the famed Penn State alumni network helped her get a couple of really good, career-building jobs outside Pennsylvania after graduation.</p>
<p>I grew up in Delaware & attended UofDel and believe I can shed some light on concerns raised in post #46/48 about impressions from Delaware residents. Growing up in a small state like Delaware surrounded by what you perceive as more glamorous/important areas like Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC and even NYC makes you eager to break out and spread your wings. At my high school going to Uof D was called going to the 13th grade (Ouch!). This is not to diminish what a great school Delaware is. It has a beautiful campus and is deservedly getting more popular (check what Princeton Review says). I especially will tout their Engineering program. An interesting observation is that many Delaware high school graduates that go OOS for college end up returning to UofD as transfer students. (Grass is not always greener.)</p>
<p>Delaware will often award merit money for strong OOS candidates (trying to made their tuition on par with what a student would pay for their instate school).</p>
<p>Go fighting Blue Hens!</p>