UIUC Grainger vs. Wash U for both Physics and Philosophy [similar cost]

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D24 wants to study both physics and philosophy. She is trying to decide between the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign (UIUC) Grainger School of Engineering and Washington University (WashU) in St. Louis College of Arts & Sciences.

The costs are similar, so not a deciding factor. She is looking for a well-rounded undergraduate educational experience, but also wants to gain technical skills, participate in research, etc. She plans to attend grad school, but doesn’t have solid career plans yet. She would like access to an art studio and has no interest in attending large sporting events.

Any advice?

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Congrats to your daughter! Both great choices. Has she visited both? Attending any admitted student events?

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Unless I am mistaken, at Illinois in order to major in two subjects in two different colleges (Physics is in Grainger, Philosophy in LAS), you have to do a Dual Degree, not just a Dual Major, with admissions granted by both colleges. I’d check carefully into exactly what that would mean for your daughter, including how many other sorts of things she would be free to explore outside those programs after satisfying all their degree requirements.

WUSTL makes it way easier to do dual majors, including between colleges–although for them Physics and Philosophy are both in Arts & Sciences. So I believe the way they do it would leave open a lot more credits for other things too. But you could map that out and see.

I note WUSTL also has a Philosophy of Science major that is specifically designed to be a second major combined with a primary major in a science:

https://bulletin.wustl.edu/undergrad/artsci/philosophy/#philosophy-science-track

I am not sure what your daughter is interested in when it comes to Philosophy, but I personally think that is very cool (full disclosure–I was a Physics major who switched to Philosophy but stayed interested in the Philosophy of Science and Philosophy of Physics).

In terms of grad school, I note Illinois had over twice as many PhD placements in a five-year window as WUSTL in this study (1555 to 732):

However, Illinois has nearly 5 times as many undergrads (about 35000 to 7500). If you do the math, WUSTL undergrads were going on to PhD programs at around 2.2X the rate of Illinois undergrads.

That doesn’t mean you can’t go to great grad programs out of Illinois, but I think it may help some WUSTL students that it has a much lower student to faculty ratio, and likely more opportunities for students to build the relationships with professors that can help them get placed in top grad programs.

That being said, in Physics specifically, Illinois has a great department. I think WUSTL has a very good department, but not really on Illinois’s level. I think that really matters most for grad school, but if your daughter was completely focused on just Physics and really liked Illinois’s department, that could point in their direction.

But given your description, and also the large possibility of actually changing her interests in college, I would think carefully before putting too much weight on that one department.

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She has visited both. She loved Physics Day at UIUC and Bears Day at WashU. The environments are very different, but the pros of each are fantastic. She favors UIUC for the technical strength and breadth of courses and research on the physics side, plus she is in awe of one of the professors. She favors WashU for “well-roundedness”, campus, and small classes.

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HI - I tried to reply directly to this, but think it came out separately. She has visited both for accepted students and likes them both for different reasons!

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Note to keep banging the same drum, but I would be even more concerned about putting too much weight on any one professor. According to NCES College Navigator, Illinois had 60 Physics majors in its last graduating class, which is an awful lot of potential competition for any one professor’s attention. WUSTL had 11, which sounds really small in comparison, but actually not far off per capita given relative undergrad size.

I then counted 22 Associate or Full Professors of Physics in the WUSTL department, 49 at Illinois. Again, a lot more at Illinois, but then in terms of as a ratio of Physics majors? Way higher at WUSTL than Illinois.

Again, I don’t mean to dismiss the interest someone could have in Illinois’s Physics department, but if you really want to work closely with specific faculty there, you almost surely want to go there for grad school. For undergrad, that is a lot more challenging to pull off.

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In a nutshell, she is one of those kids who truly loves learning for the sake of it and would be happy studying about nearly anything.

That said, she feels that physics and philosophy (and math and the intersection thereof) are fundamental to the understanding of the universe that is her actual pursuit. She truly has a passion for physics, which is why the strength of physics at UIUC is making this such a hard call for her. WashU is equally compelling on the philosophy side and other critical factors like the flexibility you mention.

For now she is torn. Maybe she’ll land on WashU for undergrad and UIUC for grad?

Funny, my husband started as a Physics major but ended up in EE. You went entirely the other direction with Philosophy. FWIW, you share an alma mater, so truly had a common starting point.

Thanks for the thoughtful advice and analysis!

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That is what I thought!

I do sometimes think this makes a little more sense, to think specialization strength more for grad school not college. Like, who knows exactly what fields and subfields she will really be passionate about in 3-4 years? At that point she can target the grad programs great for that stuff, whatever it is. But she has a bunch of intro classes and non-major requirements and so on between now and then, and I do tend to think that is a different sort of question from the grad school question.

But for the record, Illinois is a great university too, so if she goes that way I am sure that will also be fine.

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All valid points! I think she is looking for some evidence that the WashU physics professors are equally approachable, dynamic and welcoming of undergrads in research as the individual from UIUC she holds in such high esteem.

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Wise question! I wonder if she can reach out to WUSTL admissions to see if they can put her together with a Physics major or two to chat (if she has not tried already).

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At UIUC she would have to do the dual degree thing to pursue a philosophy major if she stays in Grainger. It’s pretty straightforward.

Wrt to relative number of undergrad profs, UIUC will have many grad/phd candidate who have instructor/research leader roles and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Phd candidates can be great instructors and provide additional research opportunities. My point is for an undergrad doing research whether or not their advisor/research mentor is a PhD candidate or adjunct prof or full prof may not really be that important of a differentiator. YMMV and I know different people may feel differently about this. Certainly could make sense to do WashU undergrad and then UIUC grad school.

This can mean different things to different people. To me UIUC offers a more well rounded college experience…strong academics, school spirit, fun social scene, college town. I do like WashU but it’s more of a fit school, but certainly does have smaller classes and a more physically appealing campus.

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That’s interesting.

I think Illinois certainly offers more of the traditional big public university experience, including Big 10 sports and being in a college town.

WUSTL in contrast is in a major metropolitan area. It is right across from a fantastic, world-class park with a lot of free amenities, and has a metro link into downtown St Louis. At the university itself there are many participatory clubs and activities including a LOT of sports opportunities, but no real spectator equivalent.

In that sense I don’t think the experience opportunities are more narrow at WUSTL, in some ways they are arguably broader. But Illinois definitely is more focused on traditional big college stuff specifically.

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WashU does have greater access to a large city.

Our opinions are all influenced by our experiences. Living in Chicagoland I’m quite familiar with both schools. No school is a fit for every student…different students want different experiences. To me UIUC’s overall experience is more well-rounded (based on what that word means to me.) and that’s what I was reacting too.
Generally most students I’ve sent to/or know who have gone to UIUC are really happy. Many at WashU have been too, but some have transferred out due to the social scene. I also would really hesitate to send Jewish students there right now.

Lastly, I also think there is a greater concentration of physics brilliancy at UIUC, not that WashU wouldn’t be strong.

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UIUC physics is quite a lot better than WashU. The department is a T10 and in certain fields like semiconductor physics they are pioneers.

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Absolutely. I definitely was not trying to suggest Illinois was somehow dominated by WUSTL such that everyone should choose WUSTL. I was just expressing my view that I more see them as offering two different types of varied experiences, not one more varied than the other.

And obviously that leaves it to the OP’s kid to decide which sort of experiences sound of more interest to her. The OP did say she wasn’t interested in attending large sporting events, so I think that is one source of value at Illinois that is not applicable to her. But there are still plenty of other reasons why someone might prefer the big university in a relative small college town experience–or not.

I also agree with this. I do think for the OP’s kid in particular, with her interests in also studying Philosophy and a generally more well-rounded undergraduate educational experience, that is maybe a stronger argument for a future grad program than undergrad. Which could be Illinois Physics, or something completely different depending on how her interests evolve over the next few years.

But I also get her concern about whether she would be passing up a special opportunity in Physics even as an undergrad, and I think it is worth exploring that concern with some actual WUSTL Physics undergrads if possible.

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Here is your answer. Which school is it easier to change majors into engineering or whatever. UIUC might be harder to do. Kids change majors all the time.

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Thank you!

Her impression is that there will be a wider range of physics research opportunities at UIUC, but also potentially more competition for those opportunities. She wouldn’t necessarily favor a professor over a grad student as a mentor, but she is drawn one particularly charming and interesting UIUC professor who is conducting fascinating research. She also found the overall physics atmosphere to be positive. The undergrad physics students seem very happy there.

I think she is defining “well-rounded” in terms of acadamics; not necessarily the broader collegiate experience. That is, she wants to strike a balance between arts and science - and to be able to explore a variety of courses that might strike her interest along the way. She feels that this would be more attainable at WashU.

Socially, she prefers getting together with a few friends versus larger gatherings. She is definitely not looking for a party scene or large sporting events. So, WashU may be a better fit in this sense.

I appreciate your insights!

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Good point!

Understanding that engineering is just an example of a potential major switch path, that direction would surprise me. I think she is more likely to want to add on another major or minor in arts and sciences.

Nonetheless, at UIUC she’d be starting out in the school of engineering, so that would be a good place to start if she wanted to go the engineering route eventually. However it might be difficult to switch majors within Grainger due to internal competition.

At WashU, there’s a lot of flexibility around major selection.

Thanks for introducing this line of thought!

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Could you share the cause for hesitation? Unfortunately, during both accepted student day visits we witnessed concerns at UIUC (unacceptable behavior at a city council meeting on local cable we viewed when turning in for the evening that pointed to larger community issues plus anti-semitic stickers / grafitti posted on street corners) and WashU (Graham Chapel disruption).

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Based on activities such as what happened last week at admitted students day. I know several Jewish families there, and would encourage prospective students to talk with Jewish students and/or campus Hillel leaders. That’s the same advice I would give any prospective Jewish student who is considering any school where there have been pro Palestinian and/or antisemitic protests/behaviors…and at some schools those activities/behaviors pre-date the Oct 7 attacks.

Linking to ADL’s campus antisemitism report card on WashU:

https://www.adl.org/campus-antisemitism-report-card/washington-university-st-louis

This also seems like a good resource: Home : Hillel at Washington University in St. Louis