Per U of Michigan 2017-2018 CDS:
Average GPA = 3.85
Mid 50% ACT = 30-33
Also, Michigan is a state school and it’s OOS population for freshman is 46% versus Duke at 88%. BTW, I couldn’t find Duke’s average GPA in their CDS. The boxes where the info would normally be is empty.
Oops forgot one other thing.
Duke’s acceptance rate for the Class of 2022 is 8.3%.
Michigan hasn’t released their acceptance rate for the Class of 2022, but for the Class of 2021 it was 26.5%. Not 29%. Now, if you assume applications increased to 65,000-70,000, from 60,000 last year, then the acceptance rate will drop to roughly 23-24%. Assuming the same number of acceptances as last year of course, but I’ve heard that Michigan was planning on a smaller freshman class.
“Avg GPA U Mich 3.82 Avg ACT 29-32 acceptance rate 29%
Avg GPA Duke 4.17 Avg ACT 31-34 acceptance rate 8%”
Weighted GPA for Duke, unweighted GPA for Michigan. The highest GPA on Michigan’s scale is 4.0. And Michigan’s current acceptance rate roughy 20% and plummeting), not 29%. Also, the mid 50% ACT range for the latest class was 31-35 for Duke and 30-33 for Michigan.
"Duke ranked top 10 in USNews, WSJ, Forbes, USA Today and selectivity. Regular decision 6.3% acceptance rate. Clearly defined peer group of U Chicago, Brown, Columbia and Penn. based on statistics of matriculating class
Michigan doesn’t appear in the top 20 Or match Up as a peer. Wash U or Emory as Peers. Great school but not Duke."
Those rankings are based on flawed data presented by private universities, including Duke. Duke lists its student to faculty ratio as 6:1. It is in fact 11:1 Those are the types of exaggerations that give private universities the edge in the rankings. If public universities played the same game (sadly, they cannot since their data is audited by the state), they too would be ranked much higher.
But among the educated, Michigan and Duke are peers. That is certainly the opinion of academe, which generally assigns identical undergraduate education ratings to Michigan and Duke. Also, the OP is interested in Engineering, and in Engineering, it is Michigan that is usually ranked higher than Duke.
“US. News ranks Duke # 11 in counselors rank Vs Mich at #22 and over all Duk #9 Vs Michigan #28”
You mention high school counselors but not university presidents and provosts. Why is that? 
According to university presidents and provosts, Michigan and Duke are tied at #13. This actually supports my point above, that Michigan and Duke are considered peer institutions among the highly educated.
"The Duke name cariës more cache in the finance space buy a Wide margin. I base this on thirty years of experience. Duke kids are nethodically recruited by NY IB shops and benefit from the depth and breath of there alumni network.
Michigan has not been a target of any of the three major banks i have worked For. Occasionaly a resumé would Pass my desk but limited if any true support."
The OP has not indicated an interest in Wall Street. As an engineer, I assume he is more concerned with Silicon Valley and tech industry jobs. If that is the case, Duke does not present an advantage over Michigan, and I certainly don’t see why the opinion of Investment Banks should be a factor in the OP’s decision.
That being said, I am surprised that Michigan was not a target at any of the major banks that you have worked for. JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley hired 35 undergraduate students from Ross alone last year. They also took 40 interns from Ross. Other major IBanks like BoA, Blackstone, Barclays, Citi, Credit Suisse, Deutsche, Lazard, Paribas, UBS etc…all hired Ross students as well. IBanks also recruit graduates from the CoE (Goldman Sachs hired 16 CoE graduates last year alone) and LSA, but obviously focus most of their attention on Ross. Clearly, Ross is a target, whether you care to admit it or not.
https://michiganross.umich.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/2016_employment_report.pdf (pages 9 and 41)
“Duke has a better reputation, is harder to get into and is more heavily recruited from.”
Duke is harder to get into, but it does not have a better reputation where it matters, and it is not more heavily recruited.
“Saying otherwise is purely an attempt to minimize a well defined hierarchical difference.”
I am speechless.
We can go back and forth but the practical reality is the vast majority of students accepted at both schools choose Duke unless driven to U Michigan be a financial imperative. The same could be said for students decision criteria in choosing Princeton over Duke.
While wishful to think otherwise there does exist a pecking order driven by supply and demand. In this case consumers (students) choose Duke by a vast majority. Again both great schools but “speechless” when being told Duke is more sought after or desirable then U Michigan… I believe willfull blindness is the correct term.
OP - did you do an engineering tour at Michigan? When I took my son there, he had to practically scrape his jaw off off of the floor. The facilities there are so impressive. I have not toured the engineering facilities at Duke, but I can’t imagine that they can compare to Michigan’s, especially in ME. My son was ready to dive right in during the tour of the project team facility. I know that you said you are using engineering as a means to an end, but since you will be doing it for 4 years, you should consider what kinds of opportunities there are for exploration during your UG years. You might actually like engineering and want to actually do it for a while.
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2017.html
Does this report make Michigan one blip better then Duke? The sad fact (with everyone’s facts) is the op was asking about engineering. I am sure he /she is running for cover or left this thread so everyone can compare that their bike is shiner then yours… I wish this thread would end but Feel compelled to state the obvious, Duke is a small Elite Private school that can take the cream of the crop applicants. I don’t think they are taking lower Stat kids like public schools do in general. For engineering their program is very limited. I didn’t even know they had a program but just went on their website. But if I wanted one of the programs they offered I am sure it’s excellent. It’s Duke… They don’t have bad programs.
For those spitting out facts please read my two previous remarks in this thread. This is just one example of reality at Michigan that doesn’t show up in the useless stats that are being stated. If you have the initiative and drive you will be successful at either institution.
“We can go back and forth but the practical reality is the vast majority of students accepted at both schools choose Duke unless driven to U Michigan be a financial imperative. The same could be said for students decision criteria in choosing Princeton over Duke.”
Princeton is superior to Duke, Duke is not superior to Michigan.
“While wishful to think otherwise there does exist a pecking order driven by supply and demand. In this case consumers (students) choose Duke by a vast majority. Again both great schools but “speechless” when being told Duke is more sought after or desirable then U Michigan… I believe willfull blindness is the correct term.”
There is no doubt that high school kids prefer Duke to Michigan. That is not in question. Like I said, with private universities exaggerating the benefits of attendance, such as halving their student to faculty ratios to improve their ranking, it is no wonder that impressionable high schoolers prefer Duke. Employers and academe (aka, graduate school admissions), on the other hand, are not impressionable. To them, Duke and Michigan are peer institutions.
The fact most kids may choose Duke is because of their parents, perceived status elevation versus peers and myths about quality of education versus a world clsss school like Michigan. It’s awfully good marketing to keep the checks coming. And it I think it also a bit of defending ones school, their kids or spouses school or validating choices made in life
Duke offers a phenomenal experience. Cameron indoor is once in a lifetime great. Tenting to get tickets for unc game is a great tradition. My nephew did the whole month this year. Alumni network is fantastic and rep is first tier. But um and Ross offer many of the same things and at a price point for many that makes it a clear winner. Pragmatism and real life sacrifices are bandied about in CC with careless abandon. Caveat emptor.
@Alexandre I agree with the basis of what you are saying. I think a lot of this is regional. As great as Duke is I really don’t think a lot of Midwestern kids would prefer Duke over x great Midwestern school for engineering. Maybe for other disciplines but not engineering. My kid went to the number school in our state that feeds Northwestern, University of Chicago and of course Illinois/Champaign. Duke might have a few applications with acceptances but again not for engineering. I am sure more East coast /west are applying to Duke.
So Alexandre and Private banker you acknowledge that the vast majority of kids prefer Duke, you just think they are wrong. We all say fit matters, let the kid decide, etc until it becomes an inconvenient result.
Kind of seems like you have drawn the conclusion you want and won’t let the overriding and most relevant fact enter into your consideration. The kids (the consumer of the good being sold) prefers Duke.
I will leave it at that…
Point taken.
I guess I would like to be part of the group that thinks independently of group think and for myself. Not every consumer decision or sales numbers reflect good, pragmatic decision making. But I’ve exhausted the point.
Cheers!
Private banker would you agree that if students prefer Duke then ultimately Duke would have the higher performing student body? If so isn’t it informed thought to attend the school with the stronger students.
Pejorative passive aggressive comments aside. Assuming you are in finance you know independent thought is only of value if the market ultimately arrives at your point of view. Otherwise you may in fact own and undervalued asset forever never realizing the imbedded value your “independent thought” recognized.
In terms of college you can go to a college you think is better but if you are surrounded by students who went there as a second choice and or the reputation is inferior aren’t you doing yourself a disservice?
Cheers!
Also leaving it at that means leaving at that. And no one was passive aggressive. I am not aggressive or passive. Pretty straightforward actually. And your comment telling us that we’ve drawn the conclusion we want is what - friendly and inclusive?
When you speculate that students propensity to choose to attend Duke is driven by “parents validating their decisions” and use terms such as buyer beware… yes you are drawing the conclusion you want. There is no factual source for that conclusion just your desired comment.
Friendly and inclusive on my part no, but based on fact yes. In fact you agreed students prefer Duke.
“In terms of college you can go to a college you think is better but if you are surrounded by students who went there as a second choice and or the reputation is inferior aren’t you doing yourself a disservice?”
For engineering a lot of people at Duke are there because they couldn’t get into their first choice, namely Stanford, MIT, CMU, Princeton, Cornell, Harvey Mudd, even public universities like Berkeley, Georgia Tech and Michigan.
And because Duke uses ED, it’s yield is artificially higher than colleges that use EA like Michigan. Duke’s RD yield is 37%, Michigan’s is 31%, meaning the colleges are a lot closer in selectivity.
So the anecdotal evidence of UM fans saying the majority of kids choose Duke is false. The universally observed rankings are wrong. The acceptance rates that are published are wrong. The average GPA and Test scores published are wrong. Lastly I suspect the weather channel is wrong when they suggest NC weather is nicer than Michigan.
Got it. Duke is everyone’s second or third choice while U Michigan is universally better and top pick in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
Cmon you can’t be that thin skinned. No one is saying that and you know it. For a particular major for a particular situation any school can make sense. And it’s not always their second choice. How many times does anyone need to hear Duke is great to feel validated. It’s great. It’s elite it’s superb it’s fantastic. It’s a lot of kids dream school I agree with you. There’s no issue. it’s just not everyone’s dream school all the time and for every situation.
“How many times”…,
Just once thanks.
From my first post. So that’s obviously not accurate
“Duke offers a phenomenal experience. Cameron indoor is once in a lifetime great. Tenting to get tickets for unc game is a great tradition. My nephew did the whole month this year. Alumni network is fantastic and rep is first tier”
Sorry pressed before it was complete.
Two -greats
One - phenomenal
One- “Once is a lifetime”
One - fantastic
One - first tier
That’s Six accolades in 4 sentences. A lot more than “once”. Just want to be clear for OP as the debate is meaningless. Duke is in fact great.
Cheers and have good day.