<p>I said “generally speaking”, which inferred that there is not necessarily a correlation between SAT scores and intelligence. There are certainly some bright NC kids who go to UNC, but their average SAT scores are lower than the OOS scores. The point I was trying to get across was that UNC’s SAT scores fluctuate more compared to Wake’s, although both schools have about the same SAT average (UNC - 1299; Wake - 1328).</p>
<p>Here’s the link if you are interested:</p>
<p><a href=“Home - Office of Institutional Research”>Home - Office of Institutional Research;
<p>I don’t think there’s “necessarily a correlation between SAT scores and intelligence,” either. Consequently, I have no idea how you can determine a group of people as “very intelligent,” and another group, as “not as intelligent” (you know-- “generally speaking”). The only data you have to go by, I am assuming, are published SAT scores. So if you don’t think there’s a correlation between SAT and intelligence, then I’m afraid you made a blanket statement and a somewhat sweeping generalization, based on what–I’m not sure.</p>
<p>But, yes, we agree they’re both great schools with beautiful campuses and capable, interesting, and diverse students (I’m sure). ;)</p>
<p>Jack, you’re right. Freakadeac has come on here posting huge generalizations without any knowledge of the actual data behind his claims. In the cases that he has supplied numbers, they’ve been incorrect (see: Rhodes Scholars, UNC basketball record). </p>
<p>To attempt to set the record straight once again, I must ask how he decided that Wake has more rigorous courses than UNC? It’s typical though, because with little else to point to, Wake students invariably retreat to the old “But our classes are harder!” argument. The fact is that there’s just nothing to back this claim up. In fact, when you look at the data… the average undergraduate GPA at UNC is almost exactly the same as at Wake–the difference is one one-hundreth of a point. In other words, UNC is no more grade inflated than Wake. I can point you to the data if you want. Simply put, it is a dubious claim that Wake classes are harder than UNC classes, and it’s an even more absurd extrapolation to say that Wake classes will lead to their students being better prepared for jobs than UNC’s, as he implied.</p>
<p>Also, it’s convenient for him to focus on SAT scores. When you look at class rank you’ll see that only 60% of Wake freshman were in the top 10% of their class while 73% of UNC freshmen were. Maybe this is why Wake students think their classes are so hard, that they just aren’t as good at getting good grades? 
just kidding, of course.</p>
<p>One more thing–</p>
<p>About his repeated claim that Wake is more of a “liberal arts curriculum,” you could easily argue that UNC wins this battle as well. UNC offers more majors, more classes, and more departments than Wake does. Certainly, a more liberal offering. UNC also has a very broad general education curriculum that requires students to take classes from every end of the academic spectrum. If he means “liberal arts” in the sense that Davidson is “liberal arts,” Wake doesn’t qualify, because in that sense, it simply means a lack of professional schools. Wake has Business, Law, and Med.</p>
<p>I don’t know why people keep forgetting about Davidson. I’d put Davidson after Carolina and Duke. I love Wake and all, but in terms of its national reputation in the liberal arts (not just accounting and finance), I’m not sure if it’s as up there.</p>
<p>I’m getting a little tired hearing that, because I’m an in state student, I’m not as smart as the other kids at UNC. I have to admit it hurts me when people weighing their options to go here throw in the ‘and it’s 82% in state… not sure how to feel about that!’ as if we’re all, if I may quote 30 rock, “mouth breathing Appalachians.” I always feel like it’s a personal attack on me and people like me from NC. We’re something to be avoided. We don’t like branching out. We’re all bible thumping conservatives who shun Northerners and have southern accents so thick no one can quite determine what we’re saying. Then there’s the other side of it. We’re cute. We’re cute with our fried chicken and our humble ways of living and speaking. I’m just… getting tired of reading about this.</p>
<p>"To attempt to set the record straight once again, I must ask how he decided that Wake has more rigorous courses than UNC?'</p>
<p>Here’s some food for thought…
<a href=“http://www.newsobserver.com/1366/story/568347.html[/url]”>http://www.newsobserver.com/1366/story/568347.html</a></p>
<p>In 2004, 41 percent of all undergraduate grades at UNC were A’s. Meanwhile, the average GPA at Wake is 2.7. Here are links citing the 2.7 average:</p>
<p><a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg;
(third paragraph)</p>
<p><a href=“Home - Wake Debate”>Home - Wake Debate;
(third paragraph)</p>
<p>I would not equate grade inflation/deflation with the quality of the intellectual experience offered or assume that the course is necessarily more rigorous because the professor awards grades differently.</p>
<p>Ok let’s review your latest mistakes. First, you attempt to compare % of A’s at UNC to GPA at Wake, not really a valid comparison, and doesn’t mean anything. For example, how do you know that UNC doesn’t give out way more C’s than Wake, balancing the large number of A’s? Why not compare the same thing at both schools? Next, let’s look at what you actually cite. First, an article from a source unaffiliated with Wake, referring to only the business school specifically and saying they traditionally like to keep gpas around 2.7. Doesn’t sound exactly like hard data now does it? Second, you cite a page from the website of a student organization. It is not dated (it could be 10 years old for all anyone knows), gives a very inexact, rounded figure, and has no citation to back it up. </p>
<p>Now I’ll provide you with some better information.</p>
<p>From an official report from the Wake Forest division of student life on Greek scholarship, it lists both the greek and overall undergraduate gpa’s for fall 06:</p>
<p>“All University Undergraduate GPA” for Fall 2006: 3.107</p>
<p><a href=“Office of Residence Life and Housing | Wake Forest University”>Office of Residence Life and Housing | Wake Forest University;
<p>Not only will I compare it to the same number at UNC, but it will actually come from the corresponding report. From The Greek Semester Report at UNC, once again, for Fall 06:</p>
<p>“All University GPA” for Fall 2006: 3.117</p>
<p><a href=“http://greeks.unc.edu/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,107/Itemid,40/[/url]”>http://greeks.unc.edu/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,107/Itemid,40/</a></p>
<p>So, to review, I’ve cited an official administration report from each school, both from just last semester, that show the difference in average GPAs at the two schools to be, like I originally stated, within one one-hundreth of a point.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the poster above me is right. EVEN IF Wake had more grade deflation, it doesn’t mean students are learning more. This comes from an old belief in education that the harder something is, the more meaningful it is. Unfortunately for freakadeac, this theory was disproved by educational psychologists over 100 YEARS AGO. Learning has to do mostly with the quality of teaching and student engagement, and very little to do with the scale and types of grades that are assigned.</p>
<p>From my experience with Calloway business school students, grade deflation does not lead to a better education. Calloway’s grade deflation actually holds the school back in both Businessweek and the Wall Street Journal’s rankings, as the student satisfaction at Calloway is so low. Calloway is a very good business school, but Wake is holding it back because of its ridiculous grade deflation. It is a well known business school, but it could develop a better reputation if it eased up on grade deflation.</p>
<p>Those GPA numbers are only from the fall semester. It is difficult to obtain hard data for four-year GPA averages. </p>
<p>Grade deflation does lead to lower student satisfaction levels and subsequent lower rankings; however, it prepares Wake students to succeed in a working environment and gives them a distinct advantage in terms of work ethic.</p>
<p>I don’t see how it prepares Wake’s students for a working environment. </p>
<p>The most notorious grade inflationers are the Ivy Leagues, and I’ve never heard of them not being prepared for a working environment or having a distinct disadvantage in terms of work ethic.</p>
<p>Here’s a link that someone (tyr?) posted a month or so ago about GPA averages in all UNC depts, by semester, from 1990-2006. While it does reflect overall grade inflation over this 16 year period (true for probably every university in the country over this time period), it’s interesting to look at the different departments, which gives an insight into the toughest majors, probably.<br>
<a href=“http://regweb.unc.edu:8080/regweb/servlet/gpa_subj[/url]”>http://regweb.unc.edu:8080/regweb/servlet/gpa_subj</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Based on the information supplied by luxlibertas, I am beginning to believe that the mythical grade inflation at Wake is just that, a myth. Perhaps it just has not experienced as much grade inflation as some other schools.</p>
<p>freakadeac,</p>
<p>Yes, that GPA info was only for the fall semester. In fact, the average GPA for last spring at UNC was actually a tenth of a point lower. What difference does it make though? If Wake and UNC have semester GPAs that are that similar, and they remain rather consistent from semester to semester, then the 4 year GPAs will be about the same too. </p>
<p>If you still think the 4 year GPAs are vastly different, how about providing some hard data that is actually credible and precise, instead of baseless and anecdotal speculation?</p>
<p>Your “work” arguments are just plain ridiculous. What does grade inflation/deflation have to do with work ethic? Just because classes are graded harder doesn’t mean students work any harder. </p>
<p>The fact that they actually DONT work any harder is why you would expect the GPAs in a harder graded school to be lower… In short, students put the same amount of work in, but because the one school grades harder, their students’ GPAs are lower. </p>
<p>If students were working harder at Wake and Wake were grade deflated, then you would expect their GPAs to be about equal to other schools, because while its harder to make good grades, they put in more work to make up for this. Maybe this is how you explain the equal GPA data I’ve provided? If it is, it’s just speculation and can’t be proven, because to my knowledge there haven’t been any studies on the average amount of work done by UNC and Wake students. </p>
<p>By this point, I guess I don’t need to point out that you have absolutely no real reason to believe Wake students do better in the workplace anyway… It’s just another one of your wild and baseless claims with which you’ve peppered this thread. Is this the kind of stuff they’re teaching at Wake Business School?</p>
<p>The OP is OOS and chose Wake. Give it a rest, y’all. ;)</p>
<p>
It figures that the department at UNC I’m taking courses in would have the lowest GPAs. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I’ll throw another fly in the ointment with respect to the caliber of instate and OOS students at UNC. Did you consider that very probably most of the “top” students who desire to stay within NC will go to Chapel Hill as opposed to paying approx. 4 times the cost at Wake?</p>
<p>warblersrule: Haha. Yeah, one of my daughter’s majors, that particular dept, has one of the lowest gpa’s, too. It’s really interesting to look at the various departments on that link, though. Actually, several haven’t changed a lot since 1990, and a couple that I saw (didn’t look at all of them) had actually dropped in GPA since 1990.</p>
<p>As far as giving it a rest . . . well, okay. We’ll give freakadeac a break if he stops making baseless claims and sweeping generalizations. ;)</p>
<p>mkm56: Sure, I think that’s most likely true. In fact, I think the top students who choose not to go to UNC (but who still wish to remain in NC), usually choose NCSU (if going public) and Duke or Davidson if private (over Wake)–at least that’s true in our part of NC, but certainly may not be true in other areas, especially those closer to the Winston area. (But that may be just a sweeping generalization!)</p>
<p>Luxlibertas… your links were very interesting. As a sophomore I was recently admitted into Wake’s Calloway business school, and I have heard some nasty stories of grade deflation in the school. Perhaps these stories of grade deflation should have been specifically assigned to the Calloway school rather than to the entire university.</p>
<p>Here is a link to BusinessWeek’s ranking of undergraduate business schools:
<a href=“http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/07rankings/index.asp[/url]”>http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/07rankings/index.asp</a></p>
<p>As you can see, Kenan-Flagler is #15 while Calloway is #17. UNC’s business school is solid overall (generally speaking!)… a great business school at an even better price. Meanwhile, Wake’s business school is very strong in areas and weak in others. Calloway ranks second in “Academic Quality Ranking.” Meanwhile, it ranks 39th in “Student Survey Rank.” In the school comments, it even mentions, “Grade deflation leaves many disappointed.” </p>
<p>I agree with the negative aspects that team_venture mentions. I still stand by my comments that grade deflation leads to a stronger work ethic. This is for obvious reasons: working harder to earn your grades leads to a stronger work ethic. Grade inflation causes laziness, and students who experience grade inflation will be more likely to have trouble adapting to work outside of the classroom. But hey, that’s just my opinion. I knew what I was getting into when I applied for the Calloway school, and I’m looking forward to the intellectual challenge. *I am NOT implying that Kenan-Flagler is an easy business school. </p>
<p>As far as bashing me for making generalizations… I corrected my mistakes for the basketball error, and Jack supplied a link which was more accurate than my article link. In retrospect, I could have used a better term than “less intelligent” when referring to in-state UNC students, and the “generally speaking” buffer was obviously not effective for some on this thread.</p>
<p>“The most notorious grade inflationers are the Ivy Leagues, and I’ve never heard of them not being prepared for a working environment or having a distinct disadvantage in terms of work ethic.” Yep, an excellent point. But I think Stanford is the school with the WORST reputation for grade inflation and got busted. Their business school one year gave EVERYONE straight A’s. LOL. But then again, to get into Stanford Business School (MBA) required Sysiphus. So its all sort of relative.</p>
<p>Most who select Chapel Hill do so for financial reasons. Though not all to be sure. Some people bleed Carolina Blue from birth. I have known some brilliant Davidson people as well. Success or failure in school is often a matter of work ethic, social adjustment, or sometimes it was a poor fit.</p>
<p>Know thyself is the best motto. Good luck to all.</p>