<p>5boys, they aren’t best buddies, but they know each other well since they both took the same very time consuming class. The class is small and involved a lot of interaction. CountingDown and I have a lot of laughs about it, since not ony are our younger sons very similar (on paper at least) so are our older sons.</p>
<p>People reading this thread should also take a look at last year’s <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1026754-under-3-6-applying-top-schools-2010-11-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1026754-under-3-6-applying-top-schools-2010-11-a.html</a></p>
<p>My D1 was another student in this category. Unweighted GPA more like 3.4, outstanding standardized test scores, attended a highly demanding entry-by-test grade-deflated public magnet program. She fell in love with Tufts at the start of her junior year, applied ED, and is now a very very happy freshman there. Maybe we need to retitle this thread “Under 3.6 and now really happy at Tufts”? 
</p>
<p>Though Tufts says that there is no admissions advantage to applying ED, I suspect it helped her because of her classmates. She was an average student in the magnet. Tufts isn’t a particularly popular school at this magnet, and the magnet students tend to apply to it as a match/safety. Since D1’s stats would’ve been lower than her classmates, it seemed to be a better idea for her to clearly demonstrate that Tufts really WAS her first choice.</p>
<p>Dunno what D1 thinks of socio-economic diversity in college vs what she saw in high school (where it was substantial), but she has said that she finds college far more intellectually diverse. Her interests are more in the social sciences, but most of her high school cohort was interested in STEM fields.</p>
<p>Is UVA a school only interested in numbers or might a 3.6/2100 kid have a chance?</p>
<p>My D didn’t get in at Tufts ;)</p>
<p>Or UVa</p>
<p>Summarizing some things I’ve learned that are relevant for this thread:</p>
<p>Not all GPAs are created equal. Rigor of class schedule and grade inflation/deflation at the HS matters a lot. There is a huge difference between an uw GPA of 3.5 that puts you in the Top 10% weighted rank, and an uw GPA of 3.5 that puts you at the 50th percentile at a school with a lot of grade inflation.</p>
<p>High standardized test scores matter a lot. (e.g. above the 75th percentile for targeted schools) </p>
<p>EA and ED can be helpful.</p>
<p>Admission results for “splitters” are unpredictable, so applying to schools with a wide range of selectivity levels is necessary. There is no safety as good as an EA or rolling admissions acceptance in hand.</p>
<p>Lots of great schools will accept students with 3.5-3.6 GPAs with rigorous schedules and high test scores and strong ECs, but you may have to expand your definition of "great’ a bit. HYPSM and the remaining Ivies probably aren’t in the cards for these students, but there are lots of other great schools that are just a bit less selective.</p>
<p>These students can be successful at selective schools if admitted, but probably won’t magically turn into 4.0 GPA students.</p>
<p>Actually, I think MM’s S2 and my S2 have had a couple of classes together!</p>
<p>We know kids who had comparable test scores and higher GPAs than S2 (and at the same program) who were rejected at Tufts and Chicago. </p>
<p>Make those essays personal and relevant. Show the fit. </p>
<p>Part of what has eased S2’s transition to college was that he was well-prepared for the intensity of college work and the need to manage one’s time well. He “hit the wall” in HS where he could no longer get by on sheer brainpower but had to learn to WORK. Kids in this range tend to do well in college because they have already learned what works for them.</p>
<p>How did your kids get into top schools with below a 3.6? Did their SAT/ACT, EC, and/or interview give them an edge? Where they what you would call a “typical Harvard bound student” minus the high gpa?</p>
<p>Or do most of your kids attend those top high schools were a 3.0 (b/borderline c) is really a 4.0 in most other places?</p>
<p>I’m curious because I want to be able to put the information i’m gathering here into context. Thanks :)</p>
<p>BlackRose, Saachi’s post is a pretty good summary.</p>
<p>For my kid I think the fact that his B+ grades still gave him a 6% rank was a huge help. (It’s not because our grading system is so tough, it’s because a huge portion of the school is getting C’s and worse.) I don’t think it hurt to be a guy with a 790 verbal score. I think he wrote great essays and really took advantage of the optional essays (or in Vassar’s case sent them a pair of his origami earrings). I believe his teachers also really made a point of writing non generic recommendations. His ECs were not that spectacular, but he had won some Science Olympiad medals at the state level and he had a longstanding commitment to the orchestra.</p>
<p>Thank you. I read sacchi’s post, but I felt like perhaps there was more to it than that. </p>
<p>My school is really small, so my percentage rank will not give me a boost. I’m trying to find out what can help me look a tad bit better. This thread has helped a bit. Thank you :)</p>
<p>BlackRose, S had no real interest in the Ivies. Visited three, was asked to apply by a football coach at one, but just didn’t feel that the Ivies had what he wanted. S2 had a 2290, was a full diploma IB student plus took 11 APs. Also was on the football team and captain of the debate team, and had some interesting community service/hobbies (archaeology digs and cooking/catering). If he had gone to our local HS, he would not have had a 3.5. If he’d gone to the high schools where my nieces and nephews have graduated over the past two years, he would have been at the very top of the class. </p>
<p>In our area, college interviewers know about the special HS programs, and I know people who have been asked if they applied/were accepted/rejected to them as part of the interview process. Colleges have a pretty good sense of what the kids coming out of these programs are made of, even if the GPA is not perfect. </p>
<p>S2 picked a HS program that accepts about 14% of the applicants and knew that he would take a hit on the GPA, but wanted the challenge. (My older S went this route at another program, and also had outstanding college admissions results.) </p>
<p>We heard after the fact that S2’s essays were very highly regarded. He may not love critical literary analysis, but the guy can sure write. He put in many weeks of work on them, and they definitely reflected who he is. </p>
<p>The consensus we came to when these kids were applying (HS class of 2010) was that if you had a ~3.5 UW, you needed to have outstanding test scores, essays, ECs, recs, etc. for <em>highly selective</em> schools. In other words, no other weaknesses. Be aware that heavily numbers-driven admission and scholarship process may work against you (though S got some merit $$ from UMCP and URochester, and he was not the only one on this thread to get merit $$). Schools that look at students in a broader context may well “get” the GPA, esp. if it is a challenging courseload.</p>
<p>mathmom, S2 did not click with his Georgetown interviewer at all. (The guy was the epitome of what S2 does NOT want to do with his life.) It was probably a sign. For both guys, their best interviews did not get admissions offers.</p>
<p>BlackRose, do read over this thread and the 2011 version as well. Keep in mind that both these threads were written over weeks–even years!–of posts, and it took all of the participants awhile to mull over the implications. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Both, for D1. D1 was a NMF with a 35 ACT and 13 APs, typical for her high school program. Her ECs were all outside of school and included a supplemental foreign language program and significant involvement in our synagogue’s youth group. She had some really interesting summer experiences, including one competitive application program where she got to do field research. There was also an internship researching an educational policy issue at a local branch of a national political-type nonprofit. She called up the organization, asked if they had internships, was granted an interview, and voila. I never was allowed to read her essays, so I can’t report on them, but Tufts does emphasize that part of the app so they must have been at least decent. </p>
<p>Then she was lucky enough to fall in love with a place that truly does look at its applicants holistically. Everything was there except for the GPA, and that was understandable if the college considered exactly what kind of high school she was coming from.</p>
<p>Whenever I read what CountingDown writes about her S2’s experience, I find myself nodding vigorously in agreement. But please don’t assume that our experiences are the one and only path for students in this GPA range. Read the threads carefully, post questions, and then take what you gain to produce the best application you can.</p>
<p>sacchi, nice summary.</p>
<p>3.6 GPA kids need to either change their working habit or adjust the work load to reach 4.0 at a selective school.</p>
<p>^Yes, but it’s not necessarily so bad to be 3.6 at the selective school, especially if it offers great opportunities. And my son’s GPA in his major is likely to be quite a bit higher than his over all GPA. Without Arabic my son’s freshman year GPA was a B+, that’s fine with me, though obviously there is room for improvement. :)</p>
<p>Thank you so much SlitheyTove and CountingDown!
What you wrote back helped me understand all of this a lot more.</p>
<p>mom5i52,
My kids cared more about getting an education than their GPAs. If they wanted a 4.0, they could have gone to our crappy local HS and been bullied. Instead, they got into programs that selected 100 freshmen out of an incoming system-wide class of 12,000. They knew what they were doing, were aware it would likely hit their GPA, and chose to do it anyway, with our full support. The opportunities were unparalleled.</p>
<p>S2 busted his tail all through HS (USNWR top 50, top-rated IB program). College has been easier than HS for him. </p>
<p>S1 got into MIT without being top 10% at his HS program, and placed directly into upper div math and graduate CS courses as a freshman. Took all of that preparatory work at his high school with classmates his own age. </p>
<p>We considered ourselves darned fortunate that our kids could get that kind of experience in the public school system. </p>
<p>I don’t give a d*mn about their GPAs if they are learning and happy. And they were.</p>
<p>CountingDown, I agree with you that 3.6 GPA is different from HS to HS, So does class rank, and kids study for themselves not for GPA.</p>
<p>Another question pop into on my head, for those A-/B+ kids, they would get into more selective colleges and perform ok but not super, they also would get into less selective colleges but perform much better, I mean higher GPA, which way will benefit them the most?</p>
<p>I’ve found with my kids that they do better when they are among their academic peers. There is a lot of synergy that takes place when a group of engaged, intense kids tackle a subject vs. being the lonely one who seldom has a chance to argue and test his ideas against others’. Even if the atmosphere is not competitive, the kids stretch each other and broaden their intellectual horizons.</p>
<p>S2’s GPA in college so far is consistent with his HS GPA, and he has recognized that he is capable of kicking it up another notch. </p>
<p>The 3.6 GPA/high SAT kids I have known are perfectly capable of pulling down higher grades (they do full IB, tons of APs, etc.), but they are also incredibly intelligent, well-spoken people out doing interesting things – and often that’s the stuff that will carry them far in life. They often took the GPA hit knowingly, because they felt there was significant value in other pursuits. My kid was not willing to tie himself into a chair and study eight hours every night for an extra point or two on his average. He wanted balance in his life and to pursue interests that were important to him. </p>
<p>And, frankly, some kids don’t discover their strengths/get organized/come out of their academic shells until they get to college. Or later.</p>
<p>I would be less concerned about the selectivity of the college and more concerned about the engagement of the students and faculty, at least as far as my kids’ academic performances are concerned. They both found from their HS experiences that a critical mass of classmates who shared their interests and intensity was very important for their happiness and development. They do well when they are intellectually engaged. Gut classes are usually the ones that trip them up, because they are not as invested. Their best grades are in what are considered the “toughest” classes.</p>
<p>S2 found that sitting in on soph/junior level courses at the colleges he visited helped him get a sense of the intellectual curiosity/intensity vibe, and there are a few well-known schools that came off his list as a result. Every kid is different, but mine found the concept of an IR prof having weekly current events quizzes to be appalling. S’s expectation was that students should already know what’s going on in the world so that the class discussions weren’t just foundational knowledge that could be acquired by reading newspapers a couple of hours a week.</p>
<p>BTW, neither of mine chose the “highest ranked” school to which he was accepted. </p>
<p>As usual, YMMV. My kids both went off the beaten path, but it has been an interesting and largely successful journey so far.</p>
<p>CountingDown
Your posts always reassure me that my son is ok to have followed his passion by stretching himself. I sometimes regret not pushing him to protect his GPA. He likes the challenges. He is not perfect. He is well rounded. He will find a college with merit or FA we can afford. Thanks.</p>
<p>CountingDown, you remind me what I was looking for when I first came to CC. Rankings, ratings, prestige-- that’s such a small part of what I (and most people, I think!) am looking for, for my kids. But it’s really hard to find the window that looks past this stuff. D has been able to get a strong sense of a place when she’s allowed to sit in on classes, so when she sees where she’s accepted we will definitely have to revisit. How I wish someone would write a college guide from the perspective of-- what is happening in the classes, what is the teacher/student relationship? Those questions mean more than the median SAT scores ever will.</p>
<p>I wish you could get a better sense of what happens in the classroom, but with hundreds of professors at every school I don’t see how you could do anything meaningful. My classes at Harvard ranged from worst lectures every compensated by a wonderful TA, brilliant lecturers with adequate TAs, fantastic seminars taught be experts in their field, a series of graduate level lecturers taught by the professor I ended up working with on my senior thesis, studio classes where the profs knew every person in the class some great (the guy whose title was “lecturer” for 30+ years), some okay (the head of the department.) </p>
<p>Both my kids tend to work hard in classes that interest them and less hard in the ones that don’t. They were like that in high school and continued to be like that in college. The older one landed on his feet - graduated last spring and is more than gainfully employed. The younger one is in a much iffier field but does seem to be paying attention to what he needs to do be employable and still learn what he wants to learn.</p>