<p>
Poor children living in Appalachia can also get a full ride to Harvard and are in circumstances which are presumably no fault of their own. I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. Do you see it as “punishing” them for their parent’s actions? Or maybe as “the consequences of their parent’s actions are falling on them”?</p>
<p>Bottom line: Harvard is just throwing this money and the seat in its class away. UCSF is throwing something even more valuable away; tax dollars and a spot for a doctor to treat its citizens. Neither of these students will be able to legally hold a job when they graduate. Everyone now must bring in a birth certificate, passport, or proof of being legally able to work in the U. S. to get a job, something these illegal aliens will not be able to do.</p>
<h1>294 - the Al Jazeera story points to another problem with legalization of illegals. Even if they can be legalized under federal rules, they can still run into issues at states’ level. And the past can come and bite hard when it comes to certain professional licenses.</h1>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree, unless these students go back to their countries of citizenship and effect change there. But that does not seem to be what happens. </p>
<p>sylvan8798 wrote:
Poor children living in Appalachia can also get a full ride to Harvard and are in circumstances which are presumably no fault of their own. I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. Do you see it as “punishing” them for their parent’s actions?
I wish, oh I wish, the Ivy league schools, Harvard especially, would give time and money and scholarships to helping improve the education of our American Appalachian citizens. Again; it seems to me whoever can tell the best sob story and showcase Harvard with tons of great publicity will be the one selected. Harvard is now sitting on an endowment that, (according to boston.com), is larger than half the world’s economies. Something to the tune of 36.4 Billion dollars. I guess when you have that much money you don’t mind throwing it away on students who will not be able to hold down a legal job after they graduate from your Ivy covered walls. By all means ignore educating legal American citizens who could become doctors, lawyers, nurses, teachers, and engineers who could drastically change the culture and lives of areas of our country like Appalachia. I say shame on Harvard for hoarding this money and not spending it wisely. </p>
<p>The Harvard degree will surely gain them legal employment in some country in the world. </p>
<p>As for the medical place being ‘wasted’, remember a quarter of practicing physicians in the United States are graduates of international medical schools. Other countries are giving the products of their educational systems to you.</p>
<p>He is majoring in visual and environmental studies…why is anyone talking about gainful employment?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They are not giving us anything; we are paying for it. If other countries were educating American doctors for free, you’d have a valid analogy. </p>
<p>I have no idea what Dario’s qualifications for Harvard were, or what his future plans are. But again, I refer you to the case of Dan el-Padilla Peralta, the undocumented Princeton salutatorian, who was by all accounts a genuinely brilliant student. He ultimately outed himself as undocumented since living in the shadows wouldn’t allow him to have any hope of a career as a classics scholar, his chosen field, or to accept a scholarship to Oxford. I’m not sure how he made it to England - possibly by “self-deporting” and going on a Dominican passport --, but despite his “extraordinary circumstances” appeal being turned down by immigration authorities, he seems to have managed to obtain temporary visas fairly consistently since 2007. In that time, he did a PhD in Stanford, and is now a Humanities Fellow at Columbia while finishing his first book. He has also been involved in campaigning for the DREAM act. </p>
<p>Now, possibly he’ll at some point be unable to get his visa renewed because of his immigration history, but I’d say he has a pretty good shot at landing on his feet somewhere, whether in the US or not. Even if he winds up teaching English in the Dominican Republic, I’d say Princeton has gotten their money’s worth with this one</p>
<p>So eight years after graduating from Princeton, he still doesn’t have a paying job? And you consider that a success story?</p>
<p>Columbia Society of Fellows is most definitely a paying job, and a very prestigious one too (annual salary for next year is 61,000, for the record). </p>
<p>And, of course, PhD students get a stipend because they also do things like teach classes and publish articles- i.e, a limited version of precisely what their professors are doing. </p>
<p>So Mr. Dan el-Padilla works for another Ivy League school. How exactly is this helping America? </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Alright, so after seven years he has a one-year paying job.</p>
<p>It seems like perpetual student is the career of choice for the few illegal immigrant college graduates that I have heard about. What do others do after they graduate, I wonder?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t know anything about this particular case, but I would bet that his employment history has much more to do with his academic field than with his immigration status. For PhDs in the humanities who want academic careers, this is par (or maybe even way better than par) for the course.</p>
<p>Parts of this thread sadden me greatly.
My grandfather came here, worked the railroads, odds jobs here and there, and no one asked about his visa or whatever.
MOST Americans come from the same background as I do.
Our entire identity is built on The American Dream, which means that if you work hard you can succeed and enjoy a good life. The American Dream isn’t 'if you work hard you can succeed and enjoy a good life, but only if you’re an American".
I’m also not sure what the “nation of origin” is for a kid who’s only known the US, went to US schools, etc. (Those who think the culture shock between CA and MA is greater than between CA and Thailand clearly are impats/never been expats.)
To me, sending a kid to a country where s/he doesn’t speak the language, doesn’t know anyone, doesn’t understand the culture, dropping them in the street and leaving them to fend for themselves, is to help sex traffickers and offer them easy prey.
It’s unconscionable to me that Americans would even entertain this idea, so un-American it sounds to me.</p>
<p>I agree: the system needs fixing.
The way the legal system works is flabbergasting - H1B’s that used to be for qualified workers who graduated from the US university system are now handed out to offshore workers while graduates with skills our companies need are sent back to their countries, where their education serves their country rather than ours.
The backlog on legal applications is also mind-boggling. The system <em>creates</em> undocumented immigrants.
A good system would proceeed quickly and determine who deserves a visa and provide a clear pathway from being on a work visa to becoming a permanent resident. It would deal swiftly with people who are undocumented for nefarious purposes and it would have a simple system for kids 10 and older (5 years in school, documented, from Kindergarten) to become permanent residents (not citizens) - by “swift” and “simple”, I mean "not encompassing reams and reams of paperwork and months of legal fees.
Most developed countries with a history of immigration have a system whereby kids can apply for legal residency after x years in school, or school graduation, etc. I don’t see why it can’t be done here.
There’s enough police work to find people who are here illegally <em>to commit crimes</em> and want to remain undetected. THOSE should be our priority.
In addition, never in my lifetime will we have the money it’d take to hunt down every kid who is suspected of being undocumented… and then, what, exactly, anyway? We hold the kids hostage until the parents surrender, and send them all back who knows where on our dime? I bet that’d play very well internationally and domestically…
We send the kids away alone? That would also be great headline news, I’m sure. </p>
<p>We have to act on reality, not on our fantasy: These kids are going to stay in the US. They’re NOT going to go to their parents’ country voluntarily, as it has no meaning for them - as far as they’re concerned, they’re American (and are often surprised when they learn they aren’t, feeling betrayed by their parents). We’re not going to devote the billions it’d take to hunt them and force them back, first because we don’t have them, second because if by miracle we were to get them, there’d be other priorities.
The choice isn’t between them staying and them leaving, it’s between them staying and being productive members of society (getting a degree, working, paying taxes) and being unproductive members of society (not paying taxes, at the very least, because they’re not declared and paid under the table). That’s the choice: educating them and providing them a path to legal residency, then benefitting from rewards, or leaving them in a quagmire which also makes us lose out on their taxes and talents.</p>
<p>Now, regarding the original article:
whoever believes their kid was denied because another kid got into Harvard is delusional. Harvard has the means to admit any and all kid they want to admit. They don’t have a fixed number, either - the numbers fluctuate slightly from year to year. They take whoever they consider the best, regardless of nationality, and they pay for ALL who can’t afford going. In fact they actively seek out poor American kids, including from rural areas, and provides the best financial aid packages out there. So, no, the undocumented kid didn’t take a spot from a rural, American kid. If there were two greatly qualified kids, one undocumented and one rural, both could get in. If a kid didn’t get in, it’s because someone else fit Harvard’s needs better. Anyone who applies knows it’s a </p>
<p>However, wrt to the medical school, it’s slightly different: there, the numbers are pretty fixed due to the student/faculty ratios and the facilities. So, yes, it’s likely the undocumented student got in while another legal student didn’t which IS a problem if he can’t practice medicine as it’s a wasted spot! Regardless, that student must have been pretty exceptional if the med school admitted him despite being undocumented - med school admissions aren’t holistic, they don’t care about background and overcoming obstacles, they want motivation, intelligence, human and scientific knowledge, etc, etc, etc. My assumption is that the med school figured he was exactly what they wanted and that he’d be “legal” by the time of residency, thus that there’s a loophole for MDs wrt to green cards and such - assumption, not belief, I have no idea whether such a loophole exists (and the number of non Americans in American med schools is very very very low anyway). I do believe they should have made him sign a contract so that he promises to serves specific populations, such as for the Rural Medicine at Wisconsin, or Urban Medicine at some med schools - if you don’t follow through, you must pay the school back. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I am tempted to agree with you, except that how do you do this without creating an incentive for even more people to come here with their young children?</p>
<p>And again. You are sad about our immigration system and that there are people who oppose illegal immigration. But why do you fail to address the system of their own countries who have failed these people so spectacularly? Can’t everyone agree that the ideal situation would be for them to be educated, respected and build a future in their own countries so their families aren’t torn apart, they aren’t endangered and they can build a future? Why is the largest piece of this mess of a puzzle so aggressively ignored by so many?</p>
<p>
As far as this is concerned, the vast majority of illegal immigrants aren’t going to Harvard and aren’t even college material. I’ve worked with thousands and you might be surprised at how few will ever be financially independent in this country. And while it may have been true in the past, it is much less true now (rare, even) that people who came here illegally actually want to do things like pay taxes, register and insure their cars, get driver’s licenses and come out of the shadows. </p>
<p>Zoosermom, I actually applaud you for this:
THIS is the real problem - not a few kids who get into Harvard or Berkeley while undocumented.
I don’t know whether “the vast majority of illegal immigrants aren’t going to Harvard and aren’t even college material”. Those I know are college material but obviously I only know a small subset. 
I agree that the most important thing we can do to fight illegal immigration is make the countries that the people come from/escape, less corrupt and safer, with better perspectives for them. I actually think most people would rather stay in their country than leave, if staying was a decent option.
Oh, I am not sad people oppose illegal immigration. I am sad people would like children to pay for their parents’ fault (and it’s not a crime, what the parents did, BTW - and there ARE crimes being committed, too, which are different from being an illegal immigrant. Being undocumented and working somewhere isn’t the same as being undocumented and trafficking drugs or humans.) I am sad a lot of this discussion sounds so antithetical to the very concept of American Dream (which is damaged enough in other parts). Yes, it actually hurt me to read some things, as if some posters couldn’t remember they were the descendents of immigrants, not all of whom were legal. I’m rather idealistic and patriotic :)</p>
<p>@MathildaMae: Yes, it’s a potential problem.
However, it’s my understanding people don’t really come because they perceive “incentives”. It’s a push/pull process and I’m not even sure <em>actual</em> US reality is factored into it. In most of the world, the US is a mythical country.
(I remember an immigrant woman who was utterly unable to get through to her relatives, who all believed America was this land of wonder and basically, magic and happiness; they wouldn’t hear of anything contradicting this myth; whatever she told them about reality not being the same as what they thought, they would scream at her and just wouldn’t/couldn’t listen, speaking over her words. “How is it possible people are poor in the US? Don’t all people have electricity, cars, and TV’s?” “How can people complain about pollution, or road congestion, or long days - regardless of what it’s like over there, it can’t be as bad as here, you are so lucky you don’t realize it” “you’re just lying about the cost of things. Who would be stupid enough to pay $1 for …” (<- actual cost, $3 :p) “what’s that thing you call “long commute”? … Well, at least, you’re sitting during that.” It was stunning.)
So, not sure any reality would change immigration patterns.</p>
<p>The Mexican government makes absolutely sure its citizens know exactly what they can get. It publishes and disseminates information and holds meetings with Mexican government officials in offices that they keep in the United States. Citizens of other Central American countries also receive the benefit of this largesse because Mexico will help non-citizens come to the US or deport them, but they will not allow them to stay.</p>