Last night I saw a report on CNN about passengers being dragged or thrown off planes by aviation security. Apparently it has happened many times before – not just on United. All of the cases they highlighted were caught on cell phone video which they showed during the report. One was of a woman who neglected to turn her cell phone off quickly enough and they took her kicking and screaming off the flight. Another was of an army vet who would not put his service dog on the floor. There were a few others including a young woman being denied boarding because her shorts were too short – she bought pajama bottoms in the gift shop and they let her board.
While none of them resulted in the injuries present in the David Dau case, some of them had to be physically removed from the flight by force.
On our flight yesterday, the flight crew made several announcements that were largely incoherent. The best we could understand, they were trying to find an extra seat on the plane and were upset that passengers swapped seats among themselves. Part of the announcement was that passengers had to be in their assigned seats with no exceptions, matching the manifest since 9/11. They were also talking about no lap children (under age 2 who didn’t pay for seats) are allowed to sit in seats.
They kept promising the crew would help those who needed to swap seats, and then the Mike would cut off.
H, I and the new friend beside us in our row were puzzled at he incoherence of the announcements.
Also as we were boarding, for some reason the flight attendant decided to stand in the middle of the row where you would cross over from the right side of the plane to the left and couldn’t figure out why I stopped in front of him while trying to board. He was just standing there, totally blocking access and then realized it and stepped aside without any acknowledgment or word of apology. It was just odd.
I imagine they board people sometimes because the process takes awhile and they don’t want to take a delay to wait for the last few people to show up. However, they would be better off changing the seats as needed before boarding, and if there are open seats at the end, put people who paid for first class back into the seat. Sometimes trying to avoid giving people bad news in the hope that they won’t have to, makes it worse to do it at the last minute. But if you got a free upgrade and they move you back, just do it without complaint. An upgrade is a nice freebie, but never an entitlement.
The United ticket and gate agents used to be MUCH more helpful (and I got the impression used to have much more discretion) a few years ago, perhaps before the merger with continental. Nowadays, they mostly wring their hands and say there’s nothing they can do.
Also, lots of folks are paying extra for their economy plus seat and much less willing to consider swapping with anyone for any reason.
Handing the diaper bag to the stranger refusing to let you sit beside young D is a great idea.
If forced downgrades without compensation are seen as a risk, an airline may find it more difficult to sell seats in the premium sections. Why buy into a premium section (or any extras such as preassigned seats that they now charge for) if it is likely that you will lose what you paid for without compensation? If everyone buys cheapest economy and then the airline has to upgrade some (presumably its frequent flyer elites) to the unsold seats in the premium sections to relieve overbooking in the cheapest economy section, it cannot be good for the airline’s profitability.
China Airlines is funny. We flew with a group of about 50 people on it. For some reason, they seated people very oddly. They seated couples in front of one another, like 20A and 21A. Then the next couple would be 20B and 21B. They also randomly broke up groups within our tour group and our folks anywhere on the plane.
Fortunately they didn’t scold passengers for swapping amongst themselves to sit beside their spouse instead of in front of or behind spouse. They managed to bungle seating both directions of the flight, but otherwise the flight was OK. They blamed the travel agency for the bungled seating but the travel agency assured us they had absolutely nothing to do with seating.
One thing I’ve really noticed is that often security/flight attendants/ gate agents don’t make efforts sometimes to de-escalate the situation. It’s my way or the highway. I don’t know if it’s lack of training, just following procedures, stress and job burnout or what. But traveling can be really hard, whatever reason you’re traveling for can be loaded with stress, it’s tiring, there are delays and you’re cramped into a small space with people who can be irritating, smelly, inconsiderate and rude. Even the best of flights can be stressful. You mix that in with the fact that so many people have varying levels of medical, and mental challenges, and treating people with disrespect and as if they are military recruits just doesn’t fly. A little respect and apology goes a long way…even if it takes longer.
Have flown quite a bit the last couple of years and notice the same thing. Some crews are great at it - others seem to be very tone deaf to the nuance of a situation. I have seen a few who seem to be itching for confrontation.
Empathy and compassion go a long way. As you mentioned above BD, flying is very stressful under the best of circumstances. And it’s stressful to work for the airlines too, I’m sure.
Yes, when I was st the gate, one of the gate agents was politely trying to scan the boarding passes of the preboarding passengers while the other agent was already in a foul mood and glaring at everyone in sight. The helpful co-worker was puzzled and concerned and I tried to soothe him but thought it was unprofessional of the venting gate agent–she seemed very stressed and not the way public-facing employees should be acting in the public eye. I can’t imagine she would have helped de-escalate anything.
An expert in aviation law is also suggesting that under federal law if you are asked to disembark you are required to do so no matter how unreasonable it is. Although he does acknowledge in the article that the Dau situation was unusual:
Not surprisingly, Dr. Dao – who is still in a Chicago hospital – has begun legal proceedings. I’d be very surprised if there isn’t a fairly quick settlement, and would not mind being his attorney on a contingency fee basis!
And here’s an article criticizing the press coverage of the incident as being far too quick to accept the spin that this was a genuine overbooking situation, and that assuming it was, United was within its legal rights to kick Dr. Dao off the plane. (The contract analysis is similar to the one that I and several other posters engaged in in the other thread.)
“A little respect and apology goes a long way…even if it takes longer.”
I agree and I also realize these people get crapped on constantly by passengers. Since I’m literally a captive audience for the duration of my time at the gate and on the plane, I often make a game of it and try to turn things to my advantage. Being super nice and polite to airline personnel often is paid back with great treatment. But I’ve also encountered some that, despite my best efforts, are just downright nasty. And it does seem to be certain crews. I’m sure certain teams like working together and bid accordingly to work together. Efficient, cooperative, a well-oiled machine. Other crews seem to be comprised of the toxic employees no one wants to work with and they feed off of each other in a negative way.
D and I had a flight cancelled on us once, coming home via Oakland airport from a visit to UCB. Our 9am flight had been cancelled for some reason, and SWA was rebooking people on a 9pm. The line at the ticket counter was reeaaallly slow (I had immediately called SWA directly but they told me I had to get in line at the airport). Anyway when we finally got to the front it turned out one guy had been arguing with an agent for the past 45 minutes.
I don’t know the details but it appeared he was travelling with his elderly parent and a child. He was trying to get an earlier flight but everything was fully booked because of the cancellation (I even checked flights out of SFO, and also asked about flying to San Diego or Vegas and driving the rest of the way - all sold out). But as D and I were standing there he had this conversation with a supervisor:
Him: “Don’t you have a heart?”
Agent: “I have a heart sir, I just don’t have a seat”
It was a serious conversation but it just struck D and I as the most hilarious response ever. Anyway kudos to that agent was remaining calm and polite for such an extended period of time.
BTW, are passengers entitled to any compensation when a flight is just flat out cancelled like that? I forget the reason for the cancellation, but I know nobody got anything.
Now, United plans to compensate ALL passengers that were on Dr. Dao’s flight! Man, it would have been SO much cheaper if they just kept increasing the amount they offered to get a passenger to agree to VOLUNTARILY give up their seat.
@HarvestMoon1, I’m sure he’s basing it on the CFR provision prohibiting interference with the flight crew – just as the Contract of Carriage prohibits such intereference. But see the other thread, where I gave my opinion that I disagree with that conclusion, because it amounts to arguing that an improper order can be transformed into a proper one simply by characterizing refusal to obey that improper order as “interference” with the flight crew. What I said was:
“But I see that as essentially a circular argument, since it assumes that the orders Dr. Dao failed to comply with (i.e., to disembark) were proper in the first place. If the flight crew weren’t permitted in the first place under the contract [or under applicable law] to demand that he leave the plane — in other words, if their underlying reason for requiring him to leave was improper — then they can’t manufacture a proper reason for removing him, and turn an improper reason into a proper one, simply by giving him an improper instruction and ejecting him for refusing to obey it! Here’s an analogy: Obviously, as a common carrier and under applicable law (as well as the Contract of Carriage itself), United would not have had the right to forcibly remove this man from the plane on grounds of his race, i.e., that he was Asian. Hypothetically, directing someone to get off the plane, telling him that it was because they didn’t like his race or religion, and then having him forcibly dragged off for refusing to disembark, would clearly not provide legal justification for his removal on the alleged ground of interference with the flight crew, and would clearly render United liable for damages.”
So, by the principle of reductio ad absurdum, and because it assumes its own conclusion (i.e., that the underlying order Dr. Dao disobeyed was proper), the argument doesn’t work. And I don’t think it will work as a defense in this case.
Anyway kudos to that agent was remaining calm and polite for such an extended period of time.