<p>If I’m hiring a person, I want him to be smart. If something on his resume suggests to me that he may not be smart, that’s a negative. Now, I have known smart people who went to LU, so it wouldn’t be definitive–but I would know that he’s gone to a university that requires that everybody be taught something that I consider to be quite dumb–young-earth creationism.</p>
<p>I guess my problem is that I would hate to discriminate against anybody for his religious beliefs, but what if that belief seems to me to be so stupid that no smart person could possibly believe it? I’d hate to have that standard applied to me and my own unprovable religious beliefs, but I can’t exactly say that it’s unreasonable.</p>
<p>Any argument, including aquinas’ five, will be based on a series of premises which support a particular conclusion. Since ANY argument can be valid, people seek soundness (which is validity + all true premises.) The problem is it isn’t obvious that this argument’s sound.</p>
<p>Another problem with this type of argument is it’s just armchair philosophy. In a scientific age, you can’t make metaphysical claims (i.e. claims about nature) simply in virtue of argument. That isn’t how science works, and philosophy traditionally hasn’t made lasting metaphysical contributions using these types of arguments. Logical or not, science is done in virtue of experiments and evidence. Not by saying “here’s an argument, therefore this is the case.”</p>
<p>Even philosophers call out other philosophers for making these types of armchair claims. Here’s an example:</p>
<p>You’re trying to change the subject by saying this is an attack against evangelical Christianity just as if this were an attack against Mormonism and BYU. The argument about Liberty has nothing to do with personal beliefs. The article itself said that there are Mormons who attend Idaho State, and plenty of evangelical Christians can attend schools other than Liberty.</p>
<p>Yes, there is discrimination against Mormons and that is unfortunate, but anyone who knows their stuff will know that there is nothing very fishy about a BYU degree, while there is plenty to question about a Liberty degree. The debate is whether Liberty and the way they disregard for mainstream science and constant censorship of media they deem unfavorable cheapens a degree from that school.</p>
<p>BYU requires its students to adhere to Mormon laws, yes, but they have done nothing close to what Liberty has done in terms of: Teaching strictly creationist science and disregarding mainstream science, or censoring any and all materials they deem to be “sinful” (this censorship is the worst damage one can do to a college education). </p>
<p>BYU operates under the laws of the Mormon religion, yes, but they do not damage their learning environment in the way that Liberty has. On the contrary, they have a legitimate science program that does legitimate research on mainstream scientific questions. They censor comparatively few websites, and have allowed, unlike Liberty, a college democrats group to exist. Liberty, on the other hand, heavily censors the Internet, prevented a college democrats group from organizing, and, as shown by their reaction to student protests against Romney’s speech, fundamentally disregards student freedoms.</p>
<p>So I agree that I would question hiring someone from Liberty, Bob Jones, or any other campus that seems hellbent on preventing legitimate academic discussion.</p>
<p>Obviously youknow nothing of regular LU science classes. You do not get into med school taking fake sciences classes. </p>
<p>BYU has a student code very similar to LU. I was kicked offthe BYU campus for wearing shorts–in summer. Their student code is VERY much like LU’s</p>
<p>"The BYU honor code governs not only academic behavior, but morality, and dress and grooming standards of students and faculty, with the aim of providing an atmosphere consistent with LDS principles. The Honor Code requires:</p>
<p>Abstinence from illicit drugs, alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea (substances forbidden by the LDS Word of Wisdom)
Honesty
Encouraging others in their commitment to keep the Honor Code
Living a chaste and virtuous life:
Appropriate gender-specific behavior (no sexual harassment)
No involvement with pornographic or indecent material
No inappropriate sexual activity (no sexual relationships outside of marriage)
No homosexual behavior
Obedience to the law
Active participation in Church services (according to whatever religion of which one is a member)
Respect for others
Clean language
Following the “Residential Living Standards” (visiting hours for members of the opposite sex)
Dress and Grooming Standards. Abiding by the guidelines for dress, grooming, and housing. Skirts must reach to the knee and shirts may not be sleeveless. Form fitting, strapless and revealing clothing is not appropriate. Male students may not wear beards or goatees without permission; such permission is usually granted only to men with skin conditions aggravated by shaving or for theatrical performances requiring beards. While BYU used to grant permission for religious purposes, this is no longer recognized as a valid exemption.
Students are prohibited from having guns on campus.[14]"</p>
But hasn’t it been established that every student at LU is required to take at least one fake science class? I think it’s debatable whether that’s enough to taint the overall degree.</p>
<p>I agree. Neither were options for my guys (and not because we parents nixed them), but once again, I know students who have gone there (BYU). It’s all about fit and what one wants from their education (along with being a teen and not really knowing what the options are I think, but honestly, those students I know who have gone to either have wanted to).</p>
<p>As an adult who has suitable job experience, I still can’t see discriminating based upon the name on a diploma. I’d go 90% off the job performance and 10% off the interview (checking people skills, but some of that comes from the job performance too).</p>
<p>At least the OP was just doing online classes. I imagine one can get away with wearing shorts then.</p>
<p>*^ Summa Theologica. Start with an assumption and construct an argument to prove the assumption.
*</p>
<p>No. Aquinas doesn’t start with an assumption. There is cause and effect. That isn’t an assumption. That is fact. For every action, there is a reaction. That is fact. </p>
<p>You’re assuming that because the word “theologica” is in the title that he’s assuming that God exists and then constructs a faith-based argument to justify a belief. </p>
<p>Instead, Aquinas breaks the existence of the world down, cause from cause from cause from cause from ??? …there has to be an Uncaused Cause. There has to have been something that exists that didn’t need something to cause it to exist.</p>
<p>I don’t have any problems with Liberty, BYU, or any other college enforcing an honor code that includes abstinence from whatever is against the denomination’s religious beliefs. They could require college uniforms for all I care. The honor code isn’t the issue. The issue is what they are/aren’t teaching in classes. The issue is indoctrination in fundamentalist religious/anti-evolution thought to the extent that the students are not getting a basic college education. Lots of colleges that are strongly affiliated with conservative religious groups, BYU among them, have a decidedly conservative focus, but are reputable universities.</p>
<p>Very few have Christian college educations. I recall PhDs from Case Western and Cornell from a couple of them (quick glances). There were several state colleges.</p>
<p>That said, their incoming freshmen stats are still very low - even for Christian colleges. I would not consider them a high academic school (regardless of Creation studies and how that fits in).</p>
<p>I was just curious… considering the track of this thread.</p>
<p>And we all know that belief in or the consideration of creationism is the number one reason people are denied job opportunities world wide…come on,really? All I can hear on here is talk about how we should keep an open mind. We must keep in mind that this goes both ways. Yes, people belive in creationism. People also believed modernism would pave the way to a future withouth war and famine. Bashing theory is not science, it is ignorance and this ignorance has turned into a pugnacious facades and the allowance of fallacies in speech (thank you Dr. Dawkins). If we want to talk like educated people let us leave our bias at home. Empiricism simply has not given us the answers it promised. Worldview taints our perspective. In the words of the famous psychotherapist Rollo May, “Mans biggest dilemma is that he has attempted to rationalize society and pretend there is no mystery left in it.” Let’s open our minds.</p>
<p>“I f a man begins with certainties, he shall end with doubts. But if a man will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end with certainties.”</p>
<p>I don’t think scientists would bash creationism if it was an actual scientific theory. It isn’t. It’s a religious belief. And when people try to say science should accept creationism as an alternative to evolution when it hasn’t undergone any scientific testing of its hypothesis, that is ridiculous.</p>
<p>I have no problem with someone’s private religious faith – until they try to equate their beliefs with science.</p>
<p>Barrons, what on earth does BYU’s dress and morals code policy have anything to do ANYTHING? People aren’t objecting to Liberty because it’s religious. They are objecting because it teaches something that flies in the face of all science.</p>
<p>Not what I heard here. So it’s about 1 class. OK. Do you know what they teach in theology classes at BYU or Notre Dame or any other religious schools? Most religion flies in the face of science. Think about it. Reincarnation?? 70 virgins, come on. It is politics plain and simple.</p>
Neither were options for my guys (and not because we parents nixed them), but once again, I know students who have gone there (BYU). It’s all about fit and what one wants from their education (along with being a teen and not really knowing what the options are I think, but honestly, those students I know who have gone to either have wanted to).</p>